Dart 15 righting after capsize + more newbie questions! [Chr

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Chris wrote:

Hiya. I'm considering buying a Dart 15 (about ?3k to ?4k) for casual use and maybe progressing to a bit of racing. I sail from Hill Head on the Solent, am 23yrs 65kg and only 5'6". I've sailed a naff old wanderer for 9 yrs and have just managed to convince the parents to exchange her for either a Dart 15 or a Laser Vago! (Your biased opinions are welcomed!)

The questions I have are mostly whether I'm big enough for the Dart 15? How easy / hard is it to right it after a capsize? Does it pitchpole easily? Do the more modern designs (Shadow / Stealth...) perform better and are they easier to control? Can the sail be reefed easily when out on the water? Are there any spinnaker options for the boat?

I'm sure you've seen the Stealth Cat - a little expensive for me - but has anyone tried using T foil rudders on a Dart for more stability?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'd like to make an educated decision! Chris.

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Charles replied:

Chris

As you might have worked out Dart 15's are now called Sprint 15's - that's how I'll refer to them below.

After putting 1 foot onto the bathroom scales to work out what 65kg is in old money I'm sure you'll manage to right the boat with your 10St, it'll take a while, but it does whatever you weigh.

I'm sure Paul Smith can recall capsizing at some point & getting the boat back up!

Since you sail on the Solent I'm sure Trevor Bulmer-Jones at Netley can extole the virtues of Sprints in person & how great they are for popping across to IoW or along the cost.

The guys on the IoW I'm sure will be keen to talk too... Erling??

The boat can pitch pole, but if you're cruising it's fairly unlikely as you won't be pushing the boat so hard (until you get the taste for it, that is!). Can't comment on the other boats you mention, but the Sprint 15 is invariably the last boat out on the water as the wind rises, as it isn't as over powered as many other cats.

I have seen 1 Sprint sail which could be reefed, otherwise no it can't ba as there's no boom to wrap the sail around & it is fully battenned, but the sail is stable & so controlable in a blow & you could always roll the jib away & still use the trapeeze to hold her down.

Asymetrics have been tried, but are not class legal, search these pages for chat on them.

How much stability do you want, if you go for a cat you'll be stunned by how much more stable they are. When I want back into a Mirror to teach my kids the first thing I did was almost capsize, 'cos I was so used to wandering about the Sprint without worrying too much about capsizing.

Not aware anyone has tried T foils, again they wouldn't be legal & you'd end up ruining a pair of blades for probably little gain.

Hope some of this helps, but the best thing is to try to blag a ride with someone to find out how much fun you are missing.

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AndrewHannah replied:

Dear Chris,

Your quest for a Sprint 15 from a Wanderer is understandable. However, I confess to never having heard of the Laser Vago. Is it one of those classes that burst onto the scene whilst your back was turned? Only to find that it has gone out of fashion, because the Laser Centre has launched yet another product.

The trusty Sprint 15 is available once again, and the class has a longevity that newer classes envy. We have kept the class rules intact with only slight, but inexpensive modifications. We don't have spinnakers. It is surprising that someone who is concerned about pitchpoles, is also enquiring about an option of a spinnaker!

Andrew Hannah.

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Dartful Codger replied:

Are you inferring that I have the weight and physique of a stick insect, or that I just capsize a lot ??
As far as I can remember, I have only capsized 3 times in 11 years of sailing Dart - sorry Sprint 15s, but righting is not a problem, providing you have a long enough rope to hand. I use an extended traveller rope which runs under the tramp and locates round the mast ball which works well.
Forget the righting line in the front beam , which is now dis-continued anyway.
Paul Smith

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Chris replied:

Thank you for your replies Charles and Andrew.

The Laser Vago is Laser's newest dinghy, designed to be sailed either single handed or 2-up with an asymmetric spinnaker. It's quite a nice boat in my opinion, and apart from the lack of space a trampoline would provide for extra bodies, it fulfils all of my requirements. See http://www.lasersailing.com/gallery/uk/vago for details etc, and Y&Y did a good review on her. A bargain for a new boat that claims to do everything at just 4 grand.

I was enquiring about spinnakers because I have read on many sites that they often pull forward and up so much that they provide good bow lift and provide a much greater stability in not so nice conditions. It would have taken me a few years to build up the courage to use one though I must admit, but I'm buying my next boat to last!

Has anyone tried any other single handed Cat's, and can tell me the advantages or disadvantages they have over the Sprint 15? Also how much does a fully laden Sprint weigh in at? I'm going to have to pull it up a quite steep shingle incline on my own in order to get it back into the boat park - is this easier said than done? Maybe I?ll have to set up a pulley system!

Thanks for the tips on the righting line Paul, when I find the right boat I'll ensure I set it up well. A few intentional capsizes might be a good idea!

Is there much racing over the autumn / winter months?

Thanks again for all your help,
Chris.

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Erling replied:

Chris if you would like a sail in a Sprint 15 and could get on a ferry to Ryde on a Sunday morning I will meet you and let you see for yourself the advantages of the 15 phone me on 01983865012

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Bob replied:

Hi Chris,
A few more answers.
We have quite a few sailors less than 10.5 stones (59Kg) who have no problem in righting it. George (my son) has sailed a Dart 15 (now Sprint 15) on his own since he was 15 and less than 8 stone and has never had trouble righting it.
The Stealth is a strange Cat which is totally the opposite to a Sprint 15. It has been designed and developed by a one man band (Dave Pierce).It is an out and out racing machine made out of exotic materials. It's rigging is complex - just look how the trampoline is laced to the hulls. It started out as primarily a 2 man boat but only a few were sold - it was totally eclipsed by the Spitfire which is a better boat with bigger back up from Whites. I understand that recently the Stealth has been extensively modified to make it comply with Formula 16 which makes all old boats obselete and dramatically reduces their value. It is more like buying into a development class.
I have no experince of the Vago (it looks like Laser Centre's equivalent of the RS Vareo - we have a few Vareos at Grafham & they seem a nice boat. Currently RS have a better pedigree than Laser Centre and support their classes better which is why the whole RS range is such a success).
The Sprint 15 is a one design class which means that old boats remain competitive (our current National champion's boat is 11 years old). This means that our boat owners do not get involved in expensive equipment wars to remain competitive and that the value of old boats is maintained (have a look at the buyers guide on this web site - how many classes have boats which are 10 years old being sold for more than 50% of what they were originally bought for new?.
The rigging is very simple and their are few adjustments. It is the catamaran equivalent to the Laser.
The boat is versatile. More than half of those sold are used as family or holiday fun boats and never race. The boat can be sailed single handed, or 2 up when racing but I have used mine with 4 on board when on holiday at the seaside when it makes an ideal swimming platform. We have also used it for mackerel fishing but going slow enough was a challenge.
In racing it can be used either single handed with just the main sail, 2-up with mainsail and jib (sailing off the same PY# 916) or alternatively can be sailed single handed with jib and trapeze in Sport mode with a PY of 882. In truth it is not fully competitive with 2 full sized adults but comes into it's own with father (or mother) plus a youngster (10-15years). This is ideal because often the youngster does not always want to go sailing so Dad or Mum can go by themselves when young John has something else to do or it is too cold.
The all up sailing weight is 104Kg and the boat is easy to move around single handed on shore (for steep incline shingle or soft sand you should read the items on this chat page about wider (or bigger) trolley wheels.
The class association has about 320 members and runs many events (see elsewhere on this web site) through the summer and winter - quite a few near to you. This year we have been to Netley and Gurnard - previous years we have been to Stokes Bay, Angmering, Swanage, Shanklin, etc. Our National Championships are usually in the top 3 UK for Catamaran attendance and we have been the best attended single handed catamaran for every year for more than 15 years. We are unique in that we run 2 National Championships a year (one for each format) and generally incorporate 3 days of fun sailing (cruising) into the programme.
On other Cats I did a summary comparison some time ago which I will look out and post below.
I hope this helps
Regards
Bob Carter (events secretary)

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Bob replied:

Dear Dinghy Sailing,
I would like to thank you for the What Dinghy supplement to the February Edition of Dinghy Sailing which gives some useful guidance and a lot of data to the prospective sailor. When choosing a boat it is a good idea to find out what classes your local sailing club (or clubs in your area) sail and think about these classes first. You will then get guidance from the local experts and better racing if you choose to race.

I am the Catamaran Fleet captain at Grafham and get lots of questions on what catamaran to buy and I produced the following quick reference guide for the catamarans we sail at Grafham, which may be of interest to your readers as it complements the information in your What Dinghy supplement. It is not exhaustive but gives some concise information on a number of the major catamaran classes concentrating more on the newcomer to catamaran classes.

Dart 16
Modern plastic catamaran. Most suitable for sailing 2 up but can be sailed single-handed - but hard to right from a capsize when single handed. Mostly targeted at the holiday market - very tough (but also heavy to manhandle on shore). Can pick them up for ?3000 - ?5000. Mostly owned by "fun sailors". Not much of a traveller / Open Meeting scene.

Dart 18
Older (29 years old design) 2-up, single trapeze, catamaran class. Sold over 7000 worldwide. Big Racing class. Have active traveller series, plus much more. Can be sailed single handed, but hard to right from a capsize when single handed. As there are many old boats around you can pick these up for anything from ?1000 to ?6000.

Hobie Dragoon

Two person (junior) catamaran with spinnaker. Tough Built. Ideal for 10 ? 14 year olds. Used by the RYA as the junior training catamaran under Brian Phipps guidance.



Hobie 16

Two person (twin trapeze) racing machine with optional spinnaker. Tough built world top seller. Has taken off more in the UK recently since it has been used as the RYA youth training catamaran under Brian Phipps guidance.


Shadow
Strictly a single person racing catamaran - not suitable for two-up sailing. High performance and light weight. Easy to manhandle on shore. Expensive to buy due to the use of exotic materials and very new class. Not suitable for the novice.



Sprint 15 (formerly Dart 15)
Predominantly a single hander but also quite good for Adult + youth, not competitive when raced with 2 Adults unless it is windy. Easy to right single handed. Very Flexible. Can be sailed 1 up with 1 sail, Two-up with two sails or Sprint (single handed plus two sails plus trapeze). Can Car-top it if you buy one with an (optional) split mast. Active Class Association with both winter and summer traveller series and two National Championships.



Spitfire
Strictly a two person (twin trapeze) racing machine.High performance and light weight. Very modern. Definitely the Cat to buy if you want to have the most up to date 2-up machine. Quite expensive and not suitable for the novice.


I am sure that newcomers can get similar advice at their local club but meanwhile I hope you find the above guide useful.

Regards

Bob Carter
Grafham Catamaran Fleet Captain

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nick replied:

I dont claim to be a muscle man but can with some effort pull one up the shingle at pevensey it goes well on shingle if you use skids.(gas pipe)
I like your idea of an asymetric I think one should be fitted as it would protect the class for years to come.
Given a spini this would make the boat an ideal introduction for youngsters into cat sailing before progressing on to dragoon hobie tornado. and improve the light wind performance two up.

The hobie 16 has done this and it has kept the class in the world frame .The spini would have to be cut to lift as has the hobie 16 this would compensate for a lack of front end bouyancy. multiple handicaps and sailing combinations would not be too much of a problem as there are three formats already . the dart 16 class have many combos because that is what their customers want. I do understant the one design argument but this does not over streatch the point and would keep the class in its rightful place in years to come.

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Chris replied:

Erling,

Thank you so much for your offer, I'll be sure to take you up on it soon. Maybe in a couple of weeks time? Thanks again,

Chris.

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Chris replied:

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your detailed reply, very helpful indeed. Your Catamaran clues are pretty identical to the clue sheet I made up myself during the past couple of weeks research!

I'm very glad to see that the Sprint 15 class association is being run so well with such enthusiasm, which must be down to good management through to keen members - an attractive reason to join any class! It's a shame the Dart 16 association and others lack a little of this.

Because the Dart 15 has been around for ages, has it had any reviews by Yachts and Yachting and such like magasines? I had great trouble finding any during my internet searches. If there are, I think it would be a good idea to put them on your website as it makes a big difference to the newcomer, reading a review by a third party.

Thanks, Chris.

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Chris replied:

Nick,

I feel that this could be a very long and complicated debate! From a newbie point of view, I am looking for a boat that I can keep for a long time and will keep me satisfied. I was on a quest for things that my Wanderer could not provide, speed, a trapeze and a spinnaker (asymmetric for ease of use single handed). I doubt that I would throw myself into any of these straight away, the speed will come with practise (but will instantly be faster than my wanderer!), trapeze will NEED some practise and a spinnaker was there as something for me to try when I'd mastered all the above!

I'd be interested to see the designs (and costs) of Dart / Sprint 15's that have added a spinnaker to their craft, and how they perform. I'm a bit of a DIYer, so it'd make a good winter project in a few years time!

Chris.

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John Alani replied:

It was with interest that I noted the comments in respect of the Stealth. They could not have been more uninformed.

Let's start with the name of the designer/builder - JOHN Pierce.

"It is an out and out racing machine made out of exotic materials. It's rigging is complex - just look how the trampoline is laced to the hulls" IN FACT you can have the trampoline attached any way you want! The vast majority are indeed laced to the hulls, but then so are the vast majority of 'new generation' catamarans in the world. On my own Stealth the tramp runs into tracks - just like the Dart/Sprint 15. IT IS NOT built from exotic materials (not unless you consider aluminium and GRP to be exotic). True, it does have a carbon mast but why is this 'bad'? If you break an ali mast it's time for a new one. If you break a carbon one, you get it repaired! It's also lighter (making a capsized boat easier to recover). Carbon masts are becoming 'de riguer' in almost all modern racing classes and the cost is only marginal over aluminium.

"It started out as primarily a 2 man boat but only a few were sold - it was totally eclipsed by the Spitfire which is a better boat with bigger back up from Whites" PARTLY TRUE, it did start out as a 2 person boat, the same as the Spitfire, but how is the Spit a 'better boat'? By whose standards? How is the Whites backup any better because it is 'bigger'? - I broke a lower rudder fitting on my cast aluminium rudder stock and had a replacement from John Pierce by NEXT DAY all the way from Wales to Essex. - Bigger is not always better.

"I understand that recently the Stealth has been extensively modified to make it comply with Formula 16 which makes all old boats obselete and dramatically reduces their value. It is more like buying into a development class." - Recently? 3 and a half years ago recently? Firstly ALL Stealth catamarans EVER built comply with F16 and can race in that class with no alterations. All that happened 3+ years ago was that John started to offer an OPTIMIZED F16 version i.e. a boat built to the max and mins of the class rules. This did not necessarily make older boats devalued or obsolete. My own boat is 3 years old, uses the 'old' hulls and has 3 year old sails (yes, even the spinnaker) and yet I won the inaugral Nationals earlier this summer against much newer (and some older boats). Yes, it IS a development class, BUT IT IS NOT AN 'ARMS RACE'. It is very like the Shearwater class in that you are able to have whatever you want within certain constraints. This keeps prices low (through competition between builders and suppliers) allows owners to adapt equipment from other classes or design their own. This unlike the Single Manufacturer One Design class (Dart/Sprint 15, Spitfire etc.) where everyone HAS TO have equipment supplied by the builder - no competition, charge what you like. So how is Formula class 'bad'?

What the Stealth/F16 class does offer is a fast, twin trapeze cat with spinnaker that can race F18's and the like on ACTUAL TIME and yet can be sailed solo in all windspeeds up to 25+ AND at an all-up sailing weight of just 107Kgs so that it is still recoverable solo from a capsize. I don't know of ANY other class that offers such genuine flexibility at such low cost. My own boat cost less than ?5,000 secondhand and a new Stealth, complete, in single handed mode is less than ?7,000.

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Bob replied:

Chris,
Funny you should mention that. Jeremy Evans of Y&Y did a boat test the new South African built Sprint 15 prototype this week. We wait with much interest to see what he has to say. I don't think the report will be printed for some weeks though because he is in the progress of saving up some material to use through the winter.
The guys who have fitted spinnakers to their boats as DIY fun projects were Nick Dewhirst, Gordon Goldstone and Pete Ansboro. Gordon is a regular reader of these columns - so perhaps he will add a few words on it. I believe one of our old magazines had an article by Nick Dewhirst on what it was necessary to do. If there was enough interest we could rerun this in a future magazine for our members. No boat fitted with a Spinnaker proved as fast as the standard Sprint 15 Sport but that might have been a result lack of development and sailing practice with the 3 sails.

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Bob replied:

Hi John.
I'm interested to read your comments on the Stealth. Apart from getting John's name wrong it sounds to me that my summary conclusions were correct - you just choose to put a different slant on it. Your denial on exotic marterials is amazing. The following is a pasting of the features advertised on the Stealth website.
Tapered carbon mast
Carbon daggerboards
Carbon T-foil rudders and stocks
Self tacking jib (double hander only)
Snuffer
Canted hulls
Epoxy foam sandwich hulls featuring extensive use of uni-directional fibres for maximum stiffness
Choice of glass, half carbon or full carbon lay-ups
Choice of mast/ sail combinations specifically made to suit different crew weights.
Reading on I see that the price of the optional hull constructions are as follows
Half carbon fibre hull construction ?425
full carbon fibre hull construction ?1000
So if you sail at the Nationals with the optional ?1000 carbon fibre hulls and you beat all the others does that give you satisfaction that you were able to spend more money?
I guess that the sailing world has polarized into the classes who value the benefits of one design racing where it is solely the ability of the helm which determines the positions and those who get their kicks from being in a development class and having the latest kit.
Regards
Bob