capsize help - not eating enough pies?

[Peter Cullum]

I admit, I have a Sting, but that doesn't make me a bad person!

I had my first over the other day and I could not rite the cat without help.

Despite leaning around the mast and tramp to uncleat everything, it wasn't looking like it was going turtle - so the rumours aren't true... However, the top two feet of mast was just under water and was showing no signs of coming out.

Having read the recent article, I stood on the front and the cat swung around nicely.I have the traveller line going from the back of the tramp and looped around the mast foot - tried hanging on to that to start with, leaning out about level with the mast and bouncing like hell. Nada.

Next I had the righting line (must replace the bungee as it's shot) and did the same trick. Nope. The mast was staying in the water with no signs of budging. It's so long I couldn't see the advantage of using the halyard for this.

Even with the rescue boat out and lifting the mast up it was a little tricky. Now I must be doing something wrong as I met a guy who tells me it's possible to rite an 18 single handed.

Am I simply not eating enough pies or is there a trick? I'm nearly 13 stone as it is. Will standing further aft from the mast help?

Any advise gratefully received

Pete

ps - the reason I went over in the first place: trying to figure out why the main blocks were giving so much resistance. I might have the ropes threaded badly. Quite shamefully there wasn't even much wind!

[Bob Carter]

Hi Peter,
I have the following comments to make on your capsize.
1) you are right - the righting line in the front beam is long enough if the boat is on it's side. If you are tall enough to reach up and get it out. It is not long enough to reach the rear of the boat diagonally when the boat has turned turtle. It is also a right pain to string it up once the shock chord has broken. New boats are no longer fitted with it.
2) You have experienced the classical problem with righting a Sting single handed. It is nothing to do with turning turtle - more to do with the weight of the mast and rigging. At 13 stone you are at about the weight of sailor who can just about right the boat - obviously it also helps if you are tall. You have to counterbalance the weight of the mast and rigging by getting your body out as far as possible. You need to get your body out as horizontal as possible when trying to right it.
3) It is much easier to right it on a windy day. The waves and the wind pressure on the trampoline and on the sail as it comes up can all be used to help get it up.
4) Yes some sailors can right a Dart 18 singlehanded. It clearly helps the taller and heavier they are.
5) The Sting is a fast and exciting boat to sail. It is just if you are not big enough / fit enough to right it single handed it is much better to confine your sailing to sailing clubs when there is a rescue boat to hand. Several coastal sailors have sold them due to their concern about needing to be rescued if a capsize occurs.
Cheers
Bob

[Peter Cullum]

Thanks Bob

Do you think it would help if I could somehow get further up the boat - eg climb on the line that I've got running from mast foot to traveller? I'm thinking I might be able to get a line off the mast with a loop and hook in with the harness. Then again that might be wishful thinking...

Presuming I should stay level with the mast as well - just lean back and be patient or bounce?

You are right, the sting is fast. Picks up much quicker than I remember on the standard 15. Just need to sot out the righting or the rescue boat won't be happy.

Cheers

Pete

[Duncan Ford]

Hi Pete

I had a Sting for 9 yrs (no.1235) from about 1990 having had a standard 15 for 2 yrs before that. I am one of those Bob mentioned ie. a coastal sailor (TBYC on the Thames Estuary) who sold the Sting because of the righting problems. I'm about 11 st.

I loved the Sting but got nervous about righting it. Surprisingly, altho' I usually sailed one up, I only ever capsized the Sting 2 up, so never had the problem, but it began to worry me singlehanded to the extent that I was not going out in a blow. I have had two 15s since and am much happier knowing I can right it easily on my own.

13 stone is about the size you should be able to right the Sting. Are you sure there isn't water inside your mast or your hulls? Put the boat on its side and tilt it with your ear to the mast. It can get in at the joint if it is 2 piece and water even in the bottom section could make it v difficult to right once it has capsized.

I had an extra old sail cut down to the reefing point and, using a strop at the masthead, used the cut down sail in strong wind - v effective.

From memory, the mainsheet is rigged from its fixed point to the outside block first, then the two centre blocks, then the remaining outer blocks before the jamming cleat. Also there is a switch on the final large block which stops the block wheel reversing. Make sure that switch is off so that the block wheel is free running both ways.

Duncan Ford TBYC 1973

[Bob Carter]

Thanks Bob

Do you think it would help if I could somehow get further up the boat - eg climb on the line that I've got running from mast foot to traveller? I'm thinking I might be able to get a line off the mast with a loop and hook in with the harness. Then again that might be wishful thinking...

Presuming I should stay level with the mast as well - just lean back and be patient or bounce?

Cheers

Pete

Hi Pete,
Just a few extra points.
Do not bounce - the intertia is much too great for it to make much difference. It just tires you out.
You need to be in line with the mast in a fore & aft direction. It does not help going aft once the boat is on it's side.
It is basically just a simple lever system - like a seasaw with the bottom hull as the pivot. You need to get your weight (centre of gravity) as far out from the hull as possible to increase the righting moment. This means getting your body straight and horizontal - although as soon as your body starts touching the water its bouyancy reduces the righting force.
Duncan's point about making sure that the mast and hulls have no water in them is a good one. When the mast is touching the water the boats centre of gravity is on the wrong side of the pivot - so the boat is trying to turn turtle until the bouyancy of the mast stops it. Nothing happens quickly. be patient, but if after 30 second or more the mast has not approaced the horizontal and is clear of the water then the seasaw is biased the wrong way and the boat is unlikely to come up unless you can get more weight out.
Do not dispare. Even a Sprint 15 can be hard to right on a calm day. Try not to capsize in these conditions. If there is a bit more wind it is much easier. In these conditions it is helpful to point the mast into the wind. Then the wind on the trampoline helps you right the boat and once the wind catches the sail as it comes up it all happens very fast - but can easily capsize on the OTHER side if you are not quick to grab the beam (or the tramp handle) to prevent this happening. It is not a good plan in very strong wind as this is invariably the result.
The traveller rope under the tramp is a waste of time as a righting line. If you rig it like that it's uses are as something to grab on with when the boat is upside down and as something to hold if the boat is upright but you are in the water. Thus for instance you can pull yourself along under the tramp to transfer from the back to the front of the boat, if perchance you end up near the rear beam. I have never deemed it worthwhile and have always shortened my traveller (and just use half of it) and saved the weight.
The main sail halyard is quite good (long and easiliy reached) as a righting line. It can be hard on your hands due to the fact that it is thin. So if I am Sporting I tend to wind it a couple of times round the hook on my harness. I can then lean back further without too much effort or cutting in to the palms of my hands.
Cheers
Bob

[Bob Carter]

Thanks Bob

Do you think it would help if I could somehow get further up the boat - eg climb on the line that I've got running from mast foot to traveller?

Cheers

Pete

Another thought - it would be awful to be halfway up the front beam when trying to right a capsized boat (even if you could do it). When the top of the mast is in the water much of your weight is on the wrong side of the pivot point. You need to be as far out in the opposite direction to the mast that you can. This means getting your feet as far towards the bottom (keel) of the hull that is in the water and getting your body out as far as you can. It is quite helpful to draw out the front view of the seasaw (boat) with the top of the mast in the water - then it becomes fairly obvious.
Cheers
Bob
PS If you could do your trick I reckon that you end up upside down in the water as the boat rights. Not a good recovery position to be in.
PPS a body belt to increase your weight would also help.

[Peter Cullum]

Thanks guys

I'll get back to you re water in the mast and hulls, but I think not as the mast showed no signs of wanting to go in very far even when I was leaning quite heavily around the tramp to uncleat jib, traveller and main. The mast seemed really quite buoyant.

I think my technique needs some work - you're right, the bouncing did knacker me and did next to nothing to help. I will try the righting line or halyard around the harness hook and leaning back and some patience.

I'll report back

Cheers

Pete

[Peter Cullum]

PPS a body belt to increase your weight would also help.

Or a carbon mast!

[Andrew Hannah]

How many Stings were made?

I see 1312 is for sale. Does this mean there were at least 1312 of them? Or were their numbers included in the Sprint run of numbers? Was there ever a standard Dart 15 with sail number 1312?

Or did Stings have a batch of numbers allocated to them?

Only curious!

[Bob Carter]

Hi Andrew
I've answed this before on this forum and I was corrected by the oracle (Peter Ewing). Now try and find the answers by using the search tool on this chat page.
Cheers
Bob
PS they started numbering from 1200.

[Robin Newbold]

There are 2 ways to make righting it more comfortable:
If you are sprinting (wearing a harness), then put a loop in the end of your righting line, so you are horizontal to the water, then hook in and you don't have to use your arms.
Also if you don't use a harness, then I use a piece of wood about a foot long, which I put between my legs and again don't have to use my arms. The wood has a hole in it which the rope passes through, then put a knot in the line to make sure you are parallel to the water.
If you use a righting line from the mast, put stopper knots all the way down, then it is easier to grip.

[Steve Willis]

Peter,

The suggestion about a body belt is half right.

The small 'satchel' at the front of the trampoline on the Sprint is fixed but on the Dart 18 it is a much larger and complete bag held on by englefield clips and it incorporates a shoulder strap.

This is for helping to right the boat. With the boat on its side you reach up and unattach the bag, fill it with water and sling it over your shoulder.

This gives you extra righting weight when you need it - but you don't have to carry it around with you. It might be worth you looking at something along those lines (the Dart 18 bag is about £50 - plus englefield clips on the tramp. But something like the heavy duty fabric 'bags for life' that some supermarkets are doing may suit. The key is to get a strap long enough to go over your shoulder with all your kit on and to be able to hang behind you as you pull.

With regard to your suggestion about moving up the beam to get more moment and Bob's answer. I once saw the two crew of a Shearwater climb all the way up and sit on the top hull to try and right it. All that happened was that as they pulled the hull in the water just sank further and slid away.

Also think very carefull about where your body and head will be when the hull does come down. By standing on the hull in the water you just duck your head as the hull comes down - not so easy if you were coming down with it.

[Bob Carter]

Hi Andrew
I've answed this before on this forum and I was corrected by the oracle (Peter Ewing). Now try and find the answers by using the search tool on this chat page.
Cheers
Bob
PS they started numbering from 1200.

Andrew - I just found it. Try searching on "Peter Ewing" as the word "sting" is in too many other words. It was even you who started the thread it was added to.

[Duncan Ford]

This is turning into a long thread!

Robin's point about knots in the righting line is a good one. I also put in a loop a couple of feet from the mast - it makes a great ladder for getting back on board when you are tired.

By the way, there is a diagram of how to rig the mainsheet block in the rigging manual on this website. My memory was right for once!

Duncan Ford TBYC 1973

PS Andrew - We shouldn't have to communicate via this web when our boats are next to eachother! However, I did email you earlier in the week re the name and number of the IYC member at Canvey. Can you reply with the info please?

[Peter Cullum]

The righting line with loops and knots sounds ideal - I'll resort to the extra ballast if I need to. I imagine something like a long version of an uphaul rope for a windsurfer would be ideal. Or more likely the old main sheet I have.

Are you still throwing the line over the topper most hull or just direct from the mast foot?

Thanks everyone

Pete