Rudders filling with water

[cedric]

As my rudders needed some attention I took them home to fill & reshape after I took my boat back to the club and was surprised to find they had lots of water in. This is very difficult to get out, leaving the rudder upside down gets a little draining out of the small hole in the top but not much. You have to shake the rudder to get more out and as I soon got exhuasted I now give them a shake each time I go by.
The question is how to stop a repeat. I can only assume that it becuase I spend as much time swimming as sailing and water must get in the small hole at the top. Can I block this off? Would I be better to drill another small one in the bottom? Are the rudders a sort of honeycomb which stops the water draining?
I tend to swim even more in my Byte but the rudder never seemed to get water in.

[Steve Willis]

Hi Cedric,

I have seen various comments about whether or not to plug the holes (with blutack and similar). However anything that is 'sticky' may end up falling in the rudder and not helping get the water out from within anyway. I have a concern that if you leave them plugged (even by mistake) and store them in an area that could even for a few hours in summer see the full force of the sun you could end up with a full length split due to air pressure in the blade. Martin Searle will tell you who much bad news that causes.

Of our 6 rudders one or our 18 ones continues to get quite an amount of wtaer in each time we use it - even if the hole never appears to go under water. The others rarely get much in at all even after capsize. I cannot see any splits but Martin had an interesting episode when one of his rudders actually opened up under pressure while sailing. I do suspect a split is the problem but it only opens up with the sideways force of heavy weather sailing - possibly, on ours, near the main pin area where there is some crazing.

Water removal is a pain, some suggest blowing into the hole to force the water out. I could not get much out that way whichever way up I held the rudder. It seem that the inside of the rudder is very much like the inside of disposable cigarette lighters (the see through ones give a good view of life in the ant farm so to speak) - with a barrier between the forard and stern halves. Maybe I can persuade Martin to open his old one up to have a look!!!!!!

Personally I hold the rudder upside down - hole at lowest point - and let the small amount come out then fully rotate the rudder until it is the right way up for a few seconds then repeat. You will get the hang of it if you think of it with a barrier down the centre line but it can still take 5-10 minutes after a good sailing session.

Although you did give them an opportunity to fill on Saturday (much like I did twice the previous weekend) the air in them and the small hole make it unlikely that they would fill that quickly on a capsize- even twice!

I would keep note of when you get the water in - light winds/flat sea, heavy weather etc and see if it only really occurs when they are working hard - indicating a possible split opening up under pressure.

Great to see you last weekend - happy sailing

Steve

[Martin Searle]

Hi Cedric,

<snip>
full length split due to air pressure in the blade. Martin Searle will tell you who much bad news that causes.

<snip> Maybe I can persuade Martin to open his old one up to have a look!!!!!!
<snip>

Yep its definately bad to go sailing and have the rudder open up too a full length split. The original blades I got with my boat (secondhand) in 1991 both split along the leading edge seam between the two halves of the blade after a couple of years, what happens next is they scoop up water until such time as the fibreglass can't expand anymore and it suddenly contracts (or something like that), this contraction is felt as a shudder in the steering making control somewhat erratic, since its a fairly regular pulse.

I sailed for some time with them like this, since the split was not obvious when out of the water since the water drained out instantly and the split vanished. One day sailing on a reach I looked down at the blades and could quite clearly see them opening up at the seam and thus I realized what was up. My next thought was of course what happens if one side of the blade snaps completely off whilst sailing, might be interesting

I tried various methods of sticking the two halves back together but they all failed after a month or two, the split was by this time quite obvious. Thus I acquired two new blades and these have lasted fine. Perhaps my boat originally had a pair of dodgy blades with an incorrectly glued seam or something like that.

Although I had a rudder stolen from home at the end of last year and thus I put back in service the best of the old blades with a new set of metalwork and had yet another go at sticking it back together. This failed after 2 months whilst sailing (that familiar pulse suddenly returned) and I bit the bullet and bought a new blade from Brian since it was less hassle in the long term.

Brian probably knows whats inside them but my feeling is they are hollow. I'll shine a torch into the split on one of the blades and tell you what I see.

Of my current working blades: My old blade gets some water in it as does the new, the older one has more.

Martin S.

[Bob Carter]

Hi Cedric
I guess we all have views and opinions. I have never used blue tack but I do not believe it has enough adhesion to blow the rudder apart. Our friendly boat builder, Steve Sawford, uses blue tack all the time - I believe he just leaves it there - if the rudders get hot he thinks the blue tack just gets blown off a bit to let the air out.
It only takes another small pin hole somewhere in the rudder blade below the water line to dramatically increase the water intake.
On my previous boat I drilled a second air hole (about 2mm) above the water line diametrically opposed to the existing air hole. This had the effect to increase the ingress of water when sailing (incurring a small weight penalty) but the rudders self drained if left on the boat for a few minutes with the rudders latched "up"
It worked quite well
Cheers
Bob

[Dean]

A much quicker way of emptying the rudders is to hold them up and blow into the hole until you get a mouthful of water and quickly take your mouth away (a bit like you would when syphoning petrol)

It may not be the most elegant way, but it's twice as quick as tipping it backwards and forwards (my missus' preferred method).

Three things:
1. if you sail on salt water, as I do, you get one hell of a thirst on...ideal reason to visit the bar afterwards!
2. Don't do it after you have changed into shore rig...the water tends to end up all down the front of you!
3. Be prepared or odd looks from passers by and quips about whether you have a secret stash of vodka in your rudders!!

[Bob Carter]

Cedric
I do not seem to have your EMail address - can you send me an EMail please (see contacts for mine)
Cheers
Bob Carter

[Charles]

Hi

Thought I'd revive this thread to ask what a dry rudder blade should weigh.

I've got a stash of blades (don't ask!) from Sparks, Dart 15s & Dart 18s in various states of repair & water content and wondered what I should be aiming for.

Having just been out in the garage with the bathroom scales I have the following weights, assuming everything removable weighs 1.5kg:-

2.0
2.1
2.1
2.2
2.2
2.3
2.4
2.7
2.7
3.0
3.9 (this is the one that got me thinking!)

Clearly the difference is trivial in terms of my weight gain since I started sailing 15s & even more so relative to anyone who is vaguely trim!!

What do the new rudders weigh? Obviously weight change won't be such an issue for the solid rudders.

[Steve Willis]

Hi Charles,

Over the last few years I suppose I have handled the rudders for more than 20 boats that we have put on the alignment table. There is quite a noticeable variation in weight - probably through the range you have - not had one that would appear as heavy you highest one. In some cases it appears that later rudders were lighter. Others may have been skimmed and refinished (several of our members have had that done locally). Earlier ones have a metal pivot tube whereas later ones have nylon - all small changes to a base.

I would think that alignment and secure location when locked down play a bigger factor than the blade weight.

Interesting though - maybe scales at the TT next !

[Charles]

Hi Steve, I thought you'd be the man to respond to this one!

I've found the crack in the leading edge of the heavy blade & am draining it at the moment. Curiously the blade is from an 18 and had had its breather hole carefully filled in, so its chance of draining was even less.

Yes I agree the rudder alignment is much more significant (along with all those pies!). I helped Malcolm at YDSC check the alignment on 1909 and I think he took 15mm off the con bar as a result. I can't understand how so many boats are sailed for so long without checking this.

[dart1909]

Has made a big difference Charles . Rudders feel ever so slightly lighter . Could nt believe how far out they were.

[Steve Willis]

That's great Malcolm/Charles,

I have found about 30% of boats checked have about that discrepancy in the con bar. Some of it is to do with the rudder arms not being the same (having an 18 rudder and a 15 one will be different).

Do both the arms have the same up - i.e does the con bar sit horizontal ?

I bought the adjustable con bar end that Brian sells to put on my con bar - and use that to align people's rudders to their hulls - and then compare their con bar to my adjusted one.