One design Sprint 15

[Bob Carter]

Just for your information, if anybody quotes 104kg to you, it comes from the 1978 Panthercraft marketing department and they didn't measure the mast properly either.

It is interesting to observe that the same Panthercraft sales literature that quoted the Spark all up weight as 104Kg also claimed that the Dart 18 all up weight was 130Kg. The Dart 18 actual all up weight used by SCHRS is 140Kg so the Panthercraft marketing group underestimated the Dart 18 weight as well as the Spark........

[Liam]

We are pretty tolerant on this site about open debate.

However opening loads of different threads, often with shouty capital letters and repeatedly asking the same questions is called trolling. Please do not do it. It is not acceptable.

I have locked the other threads.

Those people asking their own association for compensation because they do not like the rules of the game should take a long hard look at themselves. The committee did not decide to enforce the existing rules to punish anybody. They did it, after much thought and the gathering of evidence, for the good of the class. Sometimes the rules benefit you, sometimes they don't.

It's a stone on your boat for 12 events a year. That's it. Get some perspective.

[Gordon Deuce]

Dear Sprinters,
I like my boat 1461 and love sailing it. If I had the ability I would be first in the queue at Brian's door to buy a new boat regardless of its weight and sail it like many others at my home club at the weekend. I'd still turn up to the nationals to enjoy the racing and fun and if its a problem to others then I would declare HC on the final results and go home having enjoyed time with the sprint 15 community. Very sad about the class fall out over a few pies and a spare drink bottle in the cocktail cabinet.

[Liam]

For the first time since I took over from Martin I have removed a post from this site. Anybody trolling this site from now on will have their account removed.

[Kev192]

It's sad to see such arguments about a boat I have just returned to sailing. Surely we must be concerned with our own sailor weight i.e. A person with a light boat might be at an advantage but not if his own weight is that much more than all his opponents. We buy a boat we accept that it's made to the class rules and is the same as everyone else If weights need to be added to make everything come back inline that's fine. No big deal. No point falling out over it
New owner of #2007

[Liam]

Look forward to seeing you and 2007 at some Sprint 15 events.

[Paul Craft]

Adding weight to new boats has ramifications far reaching, some of which have not been thought of yet, I raised many questions to the committee concerning the consequences of adding weight to boats reflecting on areas of, technically, rules, future build, legal and the longevity of the class, none of which were answered, I will post these if there is interest.

If we are to add weight to boats what should have happened, which happens in any other form of modification to production specification, cars, planes, boats, houses etc. is controlled trials should have taken place for a period with accurate data collected to ascertain what affect adding weight has, how much and what is right and wrong, this would have also give a period for consultation.

Not many have new boats but we must think of how these people feel when asked to add weight, also we must think of future purchasers of new boats which needs to happen for the longevity of the class, it’s like buying a new car with your hard earned cash, and then the government say you can’t drive it on the road because it’s illegal when you have bought it in good faith.

As I understand it the objective to adding weight is to have close class racing, now ask one question:

If weight is added to just the new boats and they still come in the same position in races over a period what have we achieved by adding weight NOTHING, just a lot of upset and I hope no long term damage to the class.

There is a bigger picture to the weight issue then just adding weight which needs to be considered.

Paul

[Liam]

Very valid points. That's why we are looking at adding the weight in the same place from where it was removed. People shouldn't be getting upset over it though. If I had, in good faith, bought a boat not conforming to the rules, I would want it corrected to make it class legal. You are one of the most sporting members of the fleet so I am sure you would be the same.

[Crazysurf]

I can see there is a lot of upset, and it is a poor state of affairs for the best class of boat I have ever sailed in. I hope the class will go from strength to strength from the definitions that arise from this...

I can't really see the reason. If my boat is 1 kg heavier so what ... 6 kg lighter - now that is a lot...

Looking at the rules that were already in place before "Sprint 15 gate":

"In the case of a measurement dispute not explicitly covered by 6(a), the following procedure shall
be adopted - A random sample of 15 boats shall be taken and measured using identical techniques.
The dimensions of the disputed boat shall be equal to, or between, the maximum and the minimum
dimensions obtained from these 15 boats. If the boat in question is outside these dimensions the
matter, together with all relevant information, shall be refered to the S 15 I R C, who shall give a
final ruling. If any of the dimensions of the sample are considered to be unusual, all relevant
information shall be refered to the S 15 I R C."

"5.3. A boat shall be allowed to race only if it satisfies the requirements for a valid Measurement
Certificate. Boats without cocktail cabinets in each hull shall carry correction weights."

These are the relevant class rules that were already in place...

Let's consider, when there was only one new boat, if it was protested before the first race of an event and it was weighed and found to be under the weight of any other boat, what would have been the outcome? I would have thought, it is not carrying correctors and it is under the weight of any other boat in the sample.

Either add weight or it is outside of class...

Additional thoughts
2018 has been carrying 5.72kg for the whole of the winter series and is still doing well. Hopefully Paul will attend the final event of the season and, win, lose or draw, will have completed the winter series clear of conscience.

Personally, Sophia and I are happy to carry 6kg of lead, as defined by the class committee to ensure the one design status of the class is maintained.. We also would like to iterate that the new boats are fantastic (apart from the cleats). A much better investment than a new car...

[simon]

Why do the Sprint 15s not adopt the Dart18 Handicap system,
Seems to handicap or reward the helm on how they perform in racing and not penalise the boat and gives the midfleet helms a crack at winning, makes it fairer for everyone.

Check it out Dart 18 Class Association,
Tech Talk- Handicap System

Thats me finished
Thanks for the racing in the past and the trip to Carnag

[Liam]

Hello Simon,

I am all for giving prizes throughout the fleet and that system looks a good way of doing it. We do, however, have quite a few similar opportunities already at the Nationals.

We have the most improved cup with prizes usually awarded down to third. It uses a cunning system developed by Martin Searle which the rest of us can only begin to understand.

We also have the Pro-Am trophies which can be won by any pair of sailors throughout the fleet.

There are also heavyweight prizes and trophies for the elderly.

And then there's Stewartby where you stand an extremely good chance of winning beer.

[Liam]

Please read this article about the proposal to have a minimum weights for Sprint 15s.

https://www.sprint15.com/viewarticle.php?id=826

You may have read an unauthorised memo regarding the matter. This corrects a number of mistakes and inaccuracies in that memo.

[DavidGroom]

It occurs to me it would make sense for those who have not been sent a copy direct to be able to read the "unauthorised" memo as referred to by Liam just to put the "article posted on the website 0n 16-07-17 written on behalf of the Committee? in perspective. It might also help if the original Committee document circulated in the magazine was available but I leave this for others.

I also wonder if the author(s) of the latest article could identify themself/themselves and clarify exactly what inaccuracies and omissions they refer to in the "unauthorised" memo.

Having said that I do not want to encourage debate on the web in advance of the AGM but having both main views on the website could be useful to help those attending the AGM inform their views in advance of the debate and the final decision they make.

P:S My boat is anything but new and the boat of our ex-chairman, Gordon Goldstone who supports the views in the “unauthorised” memo, is probably one of the heaviest in the fleet.

The Sprint 15 Weight Issue - An Alternative View

A Memo to : All members From : Fellow Members (Gordon Goldstone, George Love, David Groom & Stuart Snell)
Date : July 2017

Preamble:
You will have undoubtedly read in the latest Spring 2017 edition of the Class Association Magazine “Newsprint” of The Class Association Committee’s decision to put forward a proposal (Proposal 1 on page 34) to change the Class Rules by way of adopting a minimum all-up dry sailing weight of 110kg for the boat in una-rig sailing format.
In principle, The Committee’s rationale for this proposal is that any boat under this weight has an “unfair advantage” over boats above this weight when racing. This is covered on pages 32 & 33 in the magazine. This rationale has been formulated on the basis of weighing boats. This has shown that, predominantly, the new crop of UK built boats from sail nos. 2015 are between 5kg. and 2.5 kg lighter than 110kg. and that boats with sail nos. pre 2015 are heavier by as much as 17kg.

Members will have the opportunity to vote on this proposal at the AGM to be held during the National Championships on 22 July 2017 at Thorpe Bay Yacht Club. The decision on the proposal is one of the biggest issues faced by The Class in its history and has the ability to make a major impact on the future of The Sprint 15 as a Production One Class boat.

The Purpose of this Memo:
The purpose of this memo is to offer an alternative view from a number of members who feel that:
• The Committee’s proposal is neither logical nor sensible and, if adopted, would put at serious risk the spirit and harmony of The Class and its long term future.
• the logic of making a proposal based on weight alone does not provide any concrete proof that an “unfair advantage” is gained. It simply confirms that boats from different build dates and manufacturers can vary in weight.
• Prior to making its majority decision to propose a minimum weight, The Committee has not looked at a results based analysis i.e. do recent results of new boats show that they provide an “unfair advantage” to their helms? The information appended to this memo is specifically produced around results and disproves The Committee’s contention that weight is paramount. Even then, there is no way to calculate what improvement might come from sailing a stiffer, newer boat compared to one of 12-15 years of age.

Background on Boat Weight:
Throughout the 40-year history of The Class, there has never been a specified weight for the boat. Early publicity material cited a weight of 104kg. that is still adopted by the SCHRS handicapping system. The boat is built to a specification that allows tolerances for quality of hand lay-up in the building of the fibreglass hulls, equipment at the date of manufacture, raw material supply and production deadlines. The lack of a specified weight was a conscious decision by the original manufacturers from the start of production in recognition of the issues that could emanate as a result of specifying a weight. Other classes adopt the same approach for good reason, notably Laser and the Dart 18, both of which are also constructed from fibreglass.

The Committee’s Proposal – why now?
The Committee’s proposal seeks to address an issue that has always existed but is predominantly aimed at post 2014 boats. As noted above, pre 2014 boats could vary in weight by as much as 17kg. Adopting a minimum weight rule at this time is not a logical approach. It makes no sense and does not logically address historical anomalies of weight across the fleet.

If weight was ever an issue, it should have been addressed many years ago. And, if the weight of post 2014 boats is an issue, it should have been addressed when they were first built over four years ago.

The decision to bring forward the proposal was voted on at a meeting of The Committee in January 2017. The poll in favour of the proposal was not unanimous. In the aftermath, three members, including our long standing chairman Gordon Goldstone, resigned as they felt it was a proposal they could not support or recommend to members.
In addition, at least two new boat sales have been lost plus event support from our manufacturer/supplier at all but National events. Only one original member who did not support the proposal remains on The Committee.

Does this amount of weight have a large impact on performance?
The short answer to that question is ‘No’. Of course, it does have an effect. That is science fact. But, in sailing, there are many more factors which have a much more significant impact, such as:
• the quality and expertise of the helm. This has the biggest impact – race results prove it. The best sailors will post good results in a boat of any vintage if the boat is good quality and well maintained.
• the quality and working order of the boat’s components and equipment
• the quality of the main source of power - the sails.
• how stiff the boat is and how well aligned are the hulls and rudders
• the weight of the sailor in varying wind conditions. The sailor can vary the all-up weight of the boat by a huge amount. A massive 60kg difference in sailor weight is easily possible which is often evened out by the advantage that light sailors and heavy sailors have over each other in corresponding wind conditions.

Do race results prove that the new boats have an unfair advantage because of their weight?
The short answer to that question is ‘No’. A results based analysis was undertaken.
This compiled the results of the five helms who have new post 2014 boats. A comparison between their average points tally in their new boat and the corresponding tally for their old pre 2014 boat was produced for all the events at which they competed between 2011 and 2017. This showed that:
• three of the five helms have improved their results which should be expected with a new boat. It’s one of the principal reasons why sailors in any class buy one.
• two of the five helms have posted worse results in their new boat.

A table is included with this communication to illustrate the analysis with notes, interpretation and conclusions.
In addition, a comparison was also made with another sailor, Liam Thom, who has posted much improved results after changing his boat to a newer pre 2014 boat from an old ‘Spark’. The newer boat with a new sail showed a significant and expected improvement in his results.

What might be the effects of introducing a minimum sailing weight?
Opinion will vary but the list below summarises the possible effects:
• will fundamentally change the 40 year historical ethos of The Class as a One Design Class and the benefits that brings.
• it will affect all boat owners whether or not they choose to race them. Potential buyers of new boats will be put off from making an investment which immediately requires the fitting of additional weights.
• all boats will need to be weighed by a class appointed Official Inspector to ensure consistency and accuracy of measurement. The Class Association will have to provide owners with a Certificate of Conformance to confirm each boat remains Class Legal.
• will require boats under the minimum weight to carry corrector weights if racing. At present, The Committee have not indicated what form those weights will take and have no strategy in place for how and where they will be fitted. Associated costs, structural implications or safety issues have not been addressed.
• scrutineering at events will be commonplace or mandatory. Some members may recall the discussion on this at the 2016 Nationals AGM where it was evident that this was not favoured by the majority.
• Risk of ‘home made’ alterations to reduce weight leading to more detailed scrutineering.
• New boat sales are likely to be even less than they are now. The manufacturer is likely to cease production for commercial viability reasons leading to a bleak future. The ability to buy a new boat of the superb quality of the latest boats is fundamental to a bright future. If there are no new boats in production, history shows that The Class is effectively dead.
• Keen sailing members who invest in The Class by participation will leave, making it increasingly difficult to attract new members. Membership will drop leading to increased subscriptions to maintain sustainability of Association finances.
• Class legal spare parts will become more scarce as they become less commercially viable to stock, particularly if sales of new boats which underpin the commercial viability of stocking the many unique small parts dry up. Non legal spare parts will become more common leading to scrutineering disputes.
• Increased insurance premiums due to scarcity of unique parts. Some brokers may choose to write boats off if they are not economically repairable due to absence of critical parts.
• The availability of good second hand boats will decline.
• Owners of boats at the heavier end of the weight spectrum will see their investment disproportionately decline in value. They may not be able to sell their good condition boat at a reasonable price simply because of its weight.
• The Class Association will save money – a stand at the RYA Dinghy Show will not be a good investment. But this should not be seen as a good point. The RYA Dinghy Show presents us with an annual showcase for this great Class.
• loss of event sponsorship and difficulty in finding event host clubs, especially for National Championships. The original venue for our 40th anniversary Nationals has been lost, primarily due to this issue and an alternative has yet to be found. Potentially having to share major events with other classes for economy reasons.

But it doesn’t have to be like that.
The vote to be taken at the 2017 AGM represents one of the most significant in the history of the Sprint 15. It is important that all members consider the proposals and exercise their right to vote in order that, whatever the outcome, the poll is as inclusive as possible and provides a proper mandate. This affects everyone who owns a Sprint 15, however they choose to sail it.

If you think this is important to you – please ensure your voice is heard at the AGM. The Committee has ruled that postal votes will not be considered and only those attending in person will have their vote counted.
If you can’t attend the AGM in person but want your opinion to be noted, we strongly suggest you to contact The Committee and express your views in order that they may be included in any discussion at the AGM.
You can do this by sending an email to the Chairman, Chris Tillyer : chairman@sprint15.com
We suggest you also copy the Membership Secretary, Andrew Berisford : membership@sprint15.com

In conclusion.
The authors of this memo believe that, in the light of the above, a vote for the proposal as tabled:
• is not in the best interests of The Class and its members.
• does not represent a logical approach as to its rationale.
• is not justified as the case for a minimum weight rule underpinned by the weight data alone and as presented by The Committee is, at best, unproven and threatens to destroy the goodwill built up in The Class over the last 40 years.
• cannot be fairly implemented unless all members have the option to cast their vote democratically.

N.B.: This document has been prepared by members of the Sprint 15 Association as noted in the header. It is the views and opinions of those named individuals. It should not be interpreted as the views or opinions of The Sprint 15 Class Association Committee. The table referred to in the memo is not attached

[Liam]

Press Ctrl and F, then type "cocktail" and press enter.

No results in David's article.

[George Love]

FYI

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