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Mast Ball Tolerance

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edchris177
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Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by edchris177 »

Can anyone tell me how much "play" is normal between the mast ball & heel socket?
I dropped the mast the other day, & noticed the heel plate had a fair divot worn into it.
That was an easy fix as a local fabrication shop gave me a 40mm disc of 3mm stainless steel, apparently they punch them out by the dozens on certain jobs.
After replacement, I notice that with the rigging very loose, I can move the mast base side to side. There seems no play fore/aft.
How tight should the fit be? Is some play acceptable, or is this a case for ball & base casting replacement?
Thanks
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Bob Carter
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Re: Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by Bob Carter »

Hi Chris,
Steve Willis of Seasalter Sailing Club is the expert on this but I will give you my view.

The mast pivots on the top of the slightly domed steel pin inserted into the ball. The dimple which wears in the heel plate locates the mast centrally in the foot of the mast. Until this dimple forms in the new heel plate there is nothing to locate the mast centrally and so it tends to grind the mast ball and the inside of the mast foot together when the mast rotates. So now that you have replaced the mast heel plate this process will have to happen until a dimple forms in the new heel plate. You did have a fair amount of wear on the old heel plate but it was not essential to replace it until it is worn through. I have always smeared a small amount of waterproof grease on the ball and socket to minimise friction and wear and that was all that was really necessary on your boat. If you do grease the ball and socket you have to take care when dropping the mast and transporting the boat so you do not spread the grease about on the tramp, sails, etc. I always put a (car) towing hitch cover on the ball when the mast is not up. There is no spec on the amount of clearance but there are quite a few articles on these chat pages where the mast foot and ball have worn heavily on one side due to the boat being left for long periods with the mast erected and the prevailing wind blows the mast sideways. This uneven wear can cause the mast not to locate centrally and then replacement of the mast foot and ball are sometimes required. I have never had this problem as my boats have always been heavily used. All you need to do in my view is to grease your ball and socket and use the boat and wait for the dimple to form.
I'm interested to hear what others say, particularly Steve Willis or Brian Phipps.
Regards
Bob
edchris177
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Re: Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by edchris177 »

Thanks for that information Bob. I have greased things up, my boats stay rigged in the back yard all season. I read on one of the chats about preventing wear by leaving the step pin in place if you store mast up.
During a layover in China I spent considerable time downloading/reading all the old NewSprint magazines, along with working up to page 55 of the Chats. Some very interesting reading, along with some sadness to see all to early passing of people like Nick Dewhirst.
I did come across an article regarding foot casting/ heel plate replacement in the magazine,I believe by Steve Willis, along with some discussion in the Chat Forum.
I decided to replace mine as I wasn't sure if the wear was contributing to over rotating the mast. Even up wind, it seems to want to turn 90*, which can't be the most efficient entry of wind onto the sail when close hauled. Later, I read some posts about the 15 tending to over-rotate, & the 18 using a rotator bar & line. Quite different from the same boomless design of the N5.7 & N5.0. We only use rotation for sailing deep downwind, otherwise the mast points into the apparent wind. I have much to learn about this Dart 15 in order to get the mos out of it.
My Nacra 5.7 & H18,(I know, blasphemy on these pages :lol: ) are a very close fit, & I wondered if the lateral play was a bad thing. I have actioned several other tasks from reading the Chat. Rudder lubrication & replace bumper pad in rudder A frame, replace O rings in hatch covers, check hull/rudder alignment- (all good), add dyneema safety line between hound & swivel. I will also end for end the mainsheet this winter, & tie a stopper knot where it dead ends to the torpedo block-those things are expensive, especially with our weak Canadian $.
It's a pretty small World, the Sprint 15. Through a cold call to a retired sailor of the only other Dart 15 I've laid eyes on, I was put in touch with the Canadian contact for Dart parts, Wood Hustler. He can source needed parts through Windsport, probably easier than myself, though I do get across the Pond to London a few times a year.
He also mentioned Derek Innes, (the chap George Love referred to in page 4-5) of this issue of NewSprint had come out to put his boat together when he first bought it.
https://www.sprint15.com/members/newsle ... n-2014.pdf
I believe, from reading through the Chats, your son has immigrated to Canada, & is in the Toronto area. My main residence is just north of there, in Caledon. I keep my boats fully rigged at a summer home in Orillia, on Lake Simcoe. If your son ever gets an itch to sail a Dart 15 again, he is very welcome to come up,as are you when you come over to visit. There is also a Nacra 5.0, & H18 Magnum fully rigged if he wants to sail one. The water is currently 21C, air 26C-28C, though the forecast for wind is rather pathetic for the upcoming week.
He can reach me at karen dot hilliard at rogers dot com If he is interested.
Also, from reading through the Forum, I have discovered the origins of my boat. The previous owner brought it over when he immigrated to Canada in 2011. The sail, as shown in an issue of Newsprint, is a spare he bought, "from a guy in Newcastle."
See pg 18 of this issue, just below A Mascots Nationals https://www.sprint15.com/members/newsle ... n-2015.pdf
Until that time, I believed the boat was sail 1461. Through an old post on the Forum I saw that 1461 had been sold around Newcastle, lending credence to where the sail in the photo came from. At one point the boat was at Filey, as there is a sticker on one hull. Liam had also mentioned that 1460 was now at the Solent.
I now know that it is actually sail #1641. Through more of the Forum I found hull ID #'s, & a Registration for them, along with mast & rudder #'s. Not sure if that endeavour is still active.
In order not to conflict with the real 1460, I will attempt to delete my Database entry using that number.
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Bob Carter
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Re: Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by Bob Carter »

edchris177 wrote: Also, from reading through the Forum, I have discovered the origins of my boat. The previous owner brought it over when he immigrated to Canada in 2011. The sail, as shown in an issue of Newsprint, is a spare he bought, "from a guy in Newcastle."
See pg 18 of this issue, just below A Mascots Nationals https://www.sprint15.com/members/newsle ... n-2015.pdf
Until that time, I believed the boat was sail 1461. Through an old post on the Forum I saw that 1461 had been sold around Newcastle, lending credence to where the sail in the photo came from. At one point the boat was at Filey, as there is a sticker on one hull. Liam had also mentioned that 1460 was now at the Solent.
I now know that it is actually sail #1641. Through more of the Forum I found hull ID #'s, & a Registration for them, along with mast & rudder #'s. Not sure if that endeavour is still active.
In order not to conflict with the real 1460, I will attempt to delete my Database entry using that number.
Hi Chris,
It is good to see that you have researched our website and old magazines so extensively. We think both the website and magazine are amongst the very best of all sailing classes. :D I have researched old results and I cannot find any reference to 1641 (or 1642 as mentioned by Paul Roddock in the NewSprint article) so I cannot help with the correct sail number of your boat. We have been to Filey S C a number of times on our traveller events but 1641 or 1642 did not enter. This is not surprising as we attended on Filey Regatta weekend and despite the fact that Filey had about 10 Dart 15s very few took part as virtually all local club sailors were drafted in to run the regatta. You should be able to use the edit feature in change the sail number from 1461.
Regards
Bob
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Bob Carter
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Re: Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by Bob Carter »

[quote="edchris177"]I decided to replace mine as I wasn't sure if the wear was contributing to over rotating the mast. Even up wind, it seems to want to turn 90*, which can't be the most efficient entry of wind onto the sail when close hauled. Later, I read some posts about the 15 tending to over-rotate, & the 18 using a rotator bar & line. Quite different from the same boomless design of the N5.7 & N5.0. We only use rotation for sailing deep downwind, otherwise the mast points into the apparent wind. I have much to learn about this Dart 15 in order to get the mos out of it."]
Chris, Yes the Sprint 15 does not have a spanner line to control mast rotation. Most of us just use the rig tension and the mainsheet tension to limit the mast rotation. Do not have the rig so loose that the mast can rotate more than 90degrees.
Regards
Bob
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Bob Carter
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Re: Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by Bob Carter »

edchris177 wrote: https://www.sprint15.com/members/newsle ... n-2014.pdf
I believe, from reading through the Chats, your son has immigrated to Canada, & is in the Toronto area. My main residence is just north of there, in Caledon. I keep my boats fully rigged at a summer home in Orillia, on Lake Simcoe. If your son ever gets an itch to sail a Dart 15 again, he is very welcome to come up,as are you when you come over to visit. There is also a Nacra 5.0, & H18 Magnum fully rigged if he wants to sail one. The water is currently 21C, air 26C-28C, though the forecast for wind is rather pathetic for the upcoming week.
He can reach me at karen dot hilliard at rogers dot com If he is interested.
Yes George emigrated to Canada about 11 years ago. He lives in Toronto (M6G 3JH) and sails an Albacore at Mooredale S.C. as there was no competitive Cat Racing locally. Thank you for the offer for him to have a go on your boat. I know he reads these pages so he may take you up on it although I know he is very busy and just got married.
Regards
Bob
PS Members who followed our great weight debate might be amused to read Gordon's Chairman's review on page 3 of the NewsSprint link you included.
Kevin Parvin
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Re: Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by Kevin Parvin »

Hi Chris
Hull number 1641 would make your Sprint 15 a 'Fashion' model, like mine 1615, with the three coloured blocks on the outer surfaces of the hulls. In your earlier photo they all look the same colour, is that a transfer over the original blocks as I haven't seen anything other than a purple, green and yellow pattern.
I replaced my mast end casting and ball fitting last year and there is movement forward and aft exactly as Bob describes. The back of the ball has worn quite a bit but I guess this'll settle down as the end plate begins to bed-in.
Couldn't believe it's been 11 years since George Carter moved to Canada. Any chance he could make a guest appearances at the anniversary Weymouth Nationals 2018?

Regards
Kevin
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edchris177
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Re: Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by edchris177 »

Bob Carter wrote:
edchris177 wrote: I have researched old results and I cannot find any reference to 1641 (or 1642 as mentioned by Paul Roddock in the NewSprint article) so I cannot help with the correct sail number of your boat. We have been to Filey S C a number of times on our traveller events but 1641 or 1642 did not enter.
Bob
I shouldn't make these entries late at night, I typed the wrong #, and though I generally proof read before hitting "submit", I failed to notice my error. The sail # is actually 1640. Unless of course this sail was also a replacement! It is by Hyde sails, very stiff, appears to have seen little use, it will probably last the rest of my sailing days, as I'm one of the over 60's.
On the other hand, an acquaintance down in Florida, Hans Giessler,(inventor of the G-Cat catamaran) is over 80, & still sailing, quite well too.
Thanks for the information, now if only the wind would blow a bit. water was up to 24C at the dock today, & we contemplated raising some cloth. Good thing we didn't, we would have had to paddle home. Our seasons over end of Oct, though we did sail last year on Nov 3. It will cool down quickly, we will be pulling on wetsuits in a week or so. No one here has the fortitude that your people do, I don't know anyone who owns a drysuit.
The young married life is certainly a busy time. If George can fit it in, he is certainly welcome, as is his bride.
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edchris177
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Re: Mast Ball Tolerance

Post by edchris177 »

Kevin Parvin wrote:Hi Chris
Hull number 1641 would make your Sprint 15 a 'Fashion' model, like mine 1615, with the three coloured blocks on the outer surfaces of the hulls. In your earlier photo they all look the same colour, is that a transfer over the original blocks as I haven't seen anything other than a purple, green and yellow pattern.
1615
Yes I believe they have been covered over. There is a scratch on one of the blocks, & I can see green underneath. I took a closer look after seeing a multicoloured set in some of the gallery photos.
Since purchasing a few months ago,I've only had this Dart out once in really good wind, 30mph, It has been a summer of light breeze. I normally get 35-40 days/yr under sail, & on the lighter days take out the H18 or Nacra.
I purchased the Dart as I hate staying on shore because the wind is too strong. I'm getting old enough that righting the larger Cats is getting to be a chore. I sold my 6 metre Mystere XL, (20' x 10' modern copy of the Tornado, with spinnaker), two years ago. That boat was a Holy Demon when the wind picked up, but I found it too much for myself when solo sailing, especially gybing the spinnaker.It was also a beast to right.
I flipped the Dart on purpose 1st day out, to see how righting would go. I'm only 172lb, what a treat, it pops back up like a cork.
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