Dart 15 Forums

iansmithofotley replied:

Hi Andrew,

In the latest Yachts and Yachting, the Laser Centre are selling a new Laser Vortex (with combi trailer and cover) for ?2995. This is about ?1000 cheaper than when they first came out about six years ago. I don't think that they have ever been more than about ?4500, even at their peak. In terms of 'speed and performance for money', the Vortex takes some beating in anything above a F2.

As I understand it, the top Vortex sailors felt that the boat was lacking performance downwind, compared with the upwind performance, that is why the kite was introduced. The kite is now an optional extra. The kite and all of the fitting kit (pole, chute, frame, blocks, ropes, etc.),is not marketed by the Laser Centre and is only available from the class association committee. I understand that the price of the whole kit and the kite has varied slightly, all to do with bulk purchases, from Hydes for kites and elsewhere for everything else. I think that the highest price for everything has always been just under ?1000 and less when there was a big bulk order.

This means that with the price of the Laser boat (as advertised last week) and the kite kit, you are getting alot of speed and performance for your money (under ?4000), together with 'bandit's handicaps' in either format (PY960 una rigged, and PY930 with kite). The only time that they do not perform very well, with or without a kite, is in a 'drifter', just like any other cat.

The class has suffered the same fate as the Dart 15 with the Laser Centre pulling the plug on production and advertising. I don't know how many new Vortices are available or what will happen when they have all been sold. The Vortex class association will be in the same position as the Dart 15 class association and will have some major decisions to make as to the future of the class and the production of new boats.

I hope that this helps.

Ian (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

nick replied:

Sorry Andrew I will have to leave you mystified.

Bob replied:

Hi Nick
Having stood back from this exchange I have the following comments to make.
1) In general two-up Sprint 15s are at a disadvantage, particularly if they are sailed by 2 full sized adults. The difference is much closer if the boat is sailed by two light weights ( A father plus teenage son with a combined weight of 16-18 stone (100-115Kg) can be quite effective). In the history of the class a two-up boat has only been National Champion once - it was in 1989 when Linda Moss crewed by Stuart Snell won over quite a windy weekend. Another 2-up boat was 3rd sailed by Me and George C. Another windy year (1998) at Saundersfoot Steve Hanby with teenage son Richard were only narrowly defeated into second place by George. Most years there is less wind and there is seldom a 2-up boat in the top 10 places (but also there is seldom one of the hot shots sailing one).
2) We have not submitted results to the RYA, nor proposed another PY for a number of reasons. We do not have a sufficient number of 2-up boats race to make it worth while holding a different National Championships, it is very convenient for parent/child crews to take part in the same series (if the crew gets fed up, we usually let the parent carry on with the series 1-up and una-rig), etc.
3) to compensate this we present separate trophies for the two-up boats at National Championships and the 2-up prizes are fiercely contested. Just recently not many 2-up boats have taken part in out TT series.
Racing in general handicap racing at your Club I can acknowledge that you are in general sailing at a disadvantage. There is a remedy if your Club is prepared to recognise the International Small Catamaran Handicap Rating System (SCHRS) which is a formula based system. It rates a unarig boat at 1.32 and a 2-up boat at 1.38. This is equivalent to saying that the effective PY number for 2-up boats should be 958 (based on the unarig boat being 916). In general the Sprint 15 Association do not support the use of the SCHRS system at our events because it rates our Sport format at an SCHRS of 1.23 which would mean that the effective PY rating would be 854 - when many of us already believe that it is very difficult to sail to the RYA PY of 882. There is no performance based data to support us penalizing the Sport format PY number.

On running the simple rule is that una-rig boats nearly always need to run almost directly down wind (the angle sailed to the wind direction is generally within plus or minus 10 degrees. Boats sailed with a jib (both Sport mode and 2-up boats) generally perform better by broad reaching and gybing downwind in order to keep the jib full and contributing to the drive of the boat. The one exception is in very light winds (1-3mph) I have seen going goose wing pay benefits - probably because it is easier to keep the jib filled by holding it out. As soon as there is enough wind to fill the weight of the jib it is better to go back to broard reaches.
Regards
Bob Carter (events secretary)
PS We would consider summitting the 2-up boat for a separate PY if it was proposed and approved at an AGM. It is easily accomodated in the TT series as we already run a PY system for Sport and Sprint formats. The consequences to the National Championships would need to be carefully considered.

Dave replied:

We're in the unfortunate position of sailing a 15 at Beaver two-up with more than 23 stones on the boat (mostly me, well about 55%, rather than my svelte crew). It's also our first season, so we come last in every race (handicap or fleet), partly because we're rubbish and partly because we need 15mph just to avoid sinking.
I'd respectfully suggest to the Codger that we run a local trial of the 958 handicap on behalf of the association next season at Beaver - or perhaps introduce it early, just intime for the traveller in December

George Stephen replied:

We all know that different boats (be they single or double handed, monohulls or multihulls) are suitable for crews of different weights. You only have to recall how much (muscle) weight Ben Ainsley had to put on to enable him to sail competitively in the Finn after eciding to move on from Lasers. At his enhanced weight, I expect he would not do so well in Lasers at International level.

If you are trying to sail a Sprint 15 unarig singlehanded at 15 stone (or more), or 2up at 22 stone (or more), you are carrying too much weight to be competitive - other than in really strong winds. Heavier yet will be yet more uncompetitive. Somewhere below these weights the crew will be competitive, very much depending on wind strength, but more critically on the skill of the crew. Low weight crews will be uncompetitive because the crew carries insufficient weight, except in light winds (2 & under).

Most overweight Sprint 15 sailors recognise this, especially those who are by nature competitive and are clearly also skilled sailors, but still like to sail the Sprint 15 because they enjoy both the boat and the company of the Fleet sailors.

So if you are a heavy weight single hander or a heavier weight 2up crew AND you want to be competitive in your class, perhaps the Sprint 15 is not the right choice. For the heavier, seeking to be competitive, 2up crew the more logical choice would be a Dart 18.... (Apologies for the heresy)

As regards the apparent dearth of good results for 2up boats, I have to say that, with rare exceptions, the 2up boats have been crewed by less skilled crews. When they have been crewed by good sailors, they have been sorely handicapped in light wind conditions unless they are as light as Bob has indicated (16 stone), but prospered when the wind is stronger.

In addition to Bob's record from completed Nationals, I remember a Mr Flynn (a Dart 18 sailor of known quality) sailing at Abersoch with his daughter (under 10!). Had the Class Rules allowed the Championship to be determined from the 3 races we sailed, they would have won.

I do NOT see ANY sense in trying to establish a separate PY handicap for 2up if the demand comes from crews who are
really too heavy for the design - the ensuing bonanza for "proper weight" crews taking advantage of a handicap initially determined by the performance of heavier than par crews (and possibly less skilled!) doesn't bear thinking about.

As regards a separate PY handicap for 2up, it may already be too late for a further new racing class to be set up for 2006 (what would we call it? would the RYA have time?). Remember also that the clubs contributing the race results that generate the PY handicaps will all have to subdivide their results, even if initially both unarig single handers and 2up crews race on the same handicap. Remember also that there needs to be sufficient results for the RYA to generate handicap figures - are there going to be enough results from 2up crews to be statistically viable?

Finally, I'd guess that the 2up=unarig singlehander handicap arose from the sort of trial and error process by which new boats are allocated their first PY handicap, rather than any "official" monitoring of 2up results separately from unarig. It may well have been so since the jib gear was first added to the ?Spark? ?Dart 15?, and if it hasn't changed since then this probably reflects the relatively few 2up boats that have sailed regularly in races, and especailly the fact that even fewer were recognised skilled crews (particularly helms).

George

PS I'd be interested to see if any clubs do take up the separate recording of 2up results, and to see those results. I'd clearly also want to see the overall weight of the crews, lest a handicap be created that has potential for proper weight crews to take advantage of.

nick replied:

Thanks Bob!! Makes more sense now ,I particularly like the ability to change modes mid series ( I think that is a very family friendly touch)If any one is worried, we are the top end of 'proper weight' could not tell you if I am a good sailor or not as in light winds we are well off the pace. but seen to do ok in force three plus. I am not looking to upset the whole of the nationals but mainly looking to level the pitch a bit when racing in non class organised events,( Iam quite happy with 916 in class events and I will try to get to the nationals this year) I think the idea of the small cat handicap is an excellent proposal .I would be interested to know how many others are in the same position as Dave and myself to see if it would be worthwhile putting more thought into this.If 2up becomes competitive in general handicap racing may be more people will become interested .Which has got to be good for the class .we dont want to go the way of the vortex.