Dart 15 Forums

Steve Willis replied:

I think we know a few sailors who might benefit from pre programming the course into a Sat Nav - it would remove all the confusion of whether they are on the triangle or the sausage leg!!!!!!! Imagine having all the buoys pre-programmed and just log the ones to round then press go!
Now I have to change the Sailing Instructions again !*?!

Martin Searle replied:

HMM yes I can think of one or two of those bods myself, of course I never suffer from such memory lapses (polishes Halo) .

That would be too specific since its impractical to tell the res... erm patrol boat crew to go and set marks at GPS co-ordinates, everything would get way too prceise and the Race officer would need to use a chart to plot the course, extract the co-ords for the patrol boat and then inform the GPS equipped racers what to set their waypoints too. One for yotties but not for us turn up and go types.

But for data recording quite a practical possibility, esp as many can be connected to a PC and the data downloaded.

Martin S.

Steve Willis replied:

Charles,

Many thanks for raising this thread. Above all the levity there are some serious issues to be addressed in a rapidly changing technological market.

With the techology now affordable and durable I think we need to be clear on what gives a tactical advantage and what is permitted/encouraged for safety and emergency use.

From a safety point of view compass, mobile phone and possibly GPS are all to be encouraged if use is reserved for that aspect.

From a racing point of view any fixed / visible unit that could provide either course or speed information as an aid to improving performance detracts from the rules or the ethos of most classes of dinghy / small cat.

There are obivously several routes by which this can be addressed - ISAF / RYA rules, Class Rules and Club Sailing Instructions.

One potential danger of changing club SIs is the potential risk of liability claims if something happened where use of the equipment had been prohibited locally but an individual / boat that would otherwise have used it had a safety related injury or damage incident.

From a class rules point of view it could be OK where racing is 'one class' but to prevent use by one class in handicap racing would be unfair (how does that equate to PY ??).

The issue seems to be one that should potentially be raised by a significant body (like the Association) to the RYA.

Steve

AndrewHannah replied:

Charles is perfectly correct. If we are going to legislate, then we need to be careful with the wording. Otherwise, we will end-up in a "sea of troubles"!

We have had mention of compasses, GPS among other equipment. But surprisingly, there has been no mention of anchors. Without rescue cover, an anchor is an essential piece of safety equipment, especially when cruising. All the Thorpe Bay cruising Sprints carry an anchor when they sail across the Thames Estuary from Southend. It is a perfectly seamanlike thing to do.

But the carrying of anchors could be construed as being out of class (they are not specified in the class rules). If the wind is very light, and one boat drops his anchor, he might have a tactical advantage over others who don't carry an anchor. This could happen in a foul tide.

So, the wording has to be careful. Is there a lawyer in the house....................?

Andrew.

George Stephen replied:

Charles seemed to like the Chat being generated, so here's my contribution.

For long distance dinghy and (beach) catamaran races, I think the Sailing Instructions (perhaps even Notice of Race) sometimes specify what can be carried - some REQUIRE boats to carry specified equipment - even for it to be switched on at all times, and perhaps used to notify progress at specific course "marks" - and some PROHIBIT boats from carrying specified equipment.

I suspect Nick Dewhirst has most experience of such races (I know he has competed in the Catamaran Round the Isle of Wight Race), and could well provide much more knowledgeable input than most of us, input that should help any decision process.

In poor visibility, in windy enough conditions for my glasses to get smeared, or when the bluidy mark (I hope this expression is NDYC copyright) is neither vivid nor fairly close, it's difficult if not impossible to see the next mark. After keying in the position of the buoys first time round (or even from GPS memory for navigation marks or from records from previous races!) the compass and GPS screen can tell you whether you are heading in the right direction, and I reckon this can be done even when on the wire.......

At our Nationals, we can expect a rescue boat for every 15 entered boats (Class Rules for National Championships 6.7), so no boat should go unnoticed....... But I have raced at sea when visibility has dropped to less than 50 metres (and sometimes even less), and have also manned a rescue boat in such conditions. Requiring all competitors to carry VHF transceivers (those without licences might not be able to enter?), GPS receivers, emergency flares and radio buoys might appear ideal, but is probably overkill.

I think that hand held GPS receivers are still rather more expensive than the "few pounds" that we as Association members have said was ok when voting for optional changes in the Class Rules - eg Cat Hawk Wind Indicators, jib tracks to replace the unsatisfactory standard deck fitting on Dart 15s (ie until the new Dart 18 style tramp tubes), lighter jib sheets and blocks, 3:1 downhaul etc.

RRS 2005-20008 Rule 41 OUTSIDE HELP reads :

A boat shall not receive help from any outside source, except
(a)....
(d) help in the form of information FREELY available to all boats:
.....
It's my capitalisation of FREELY, not the Rules. So my query is whether we members regard information from freely available radio waves as freely available to our members if it requires quite expensive kit to interpret the electromagnetic signals.

Before reading/hearing more of others' opinions, my preference is for Class Rules to do more than allow members to access a GPS receiver for use only for safety purposes in emergencies, and to require boats which access GPS data during a race to retire (and I wondered about back to back races....), this stricture to be capable of being waived by the Rules of the Club (or other Organising Authority) running the event in which a Sprint 15 and Sprint 15 Sport is entered.

But I liked Martin Searle's idea of setting a GPS to record the course sailed for later analysis ashore (I can imagine a gaggle of Sprinters in a club bar gathered round trying to look at a 20sq cm screen, and the comments and questions about the unusual features of the course sailed).

To allow all this given my current stated preference above, I think the GPS would have to be inaccessible to the crew during sailing while accessible for emergencies. Anyone with ideas on this?

Should I go to Halifax this year?


George

Bob replied:

My word you Seasalter guys like the technical gismos. I must admit that I understand it. Some years ago when sailing at Seasalter the Sea Mist came down when we were waiting to start a race. I had a touch of the "trots" and decided to go back to the Club to relieve myself. I could not see a thing when sailing back in the direction of the Club. I ended op half way to the Shipwrights Arms!!!! Happily I sailed back to the Club along the shore long before the mist had cleared.

Dartful Codger replied:

Gotten Himmel ! Who started this off anyway ?
Fascinating mind-boggling banter but hardly worth such desperate debate.
Put simply, I would agree that in all tidal sea-based events, e.g the 3 Piers, National and other coastal based TTs, GPS/compasses w.h.y. should be allowed on grounds of safety, but certainly not made compulsory, as that is largely down to the individual's level of competance and judgement, and is covered in our rules pertaining to COMPETITOR RESPONSIBILITIES.
Having said that, on all inland open events, one can usually see ALL marks of the course before starting, and if on occasion, that is not so, then the race is usually delayed or postponed on grounds of safety anyway. Even on many sea-based courses, you can usually see most if not all the marks, so electronic aids are not necessary. There are far too many other things happening around you constantly during a race that will 'have a bearing' on whether you are likely to win it or not, so merely focussing on what the GPS or hand-held compass is telling you is unlikely to be your salvation, more likely your tale of woe in the bar afterwards when you relate why it all went pear-shaped !
Put even shorter, I don't see that a Sprint 15 sailor with loads a money, sporting any or all of these devices should be viewed as having any advantage over one who hasn't .
No worries then - still , it's good to talk !
Doubtful Dartful

Chris Read replied:

For safety's sake I would and do carry a compass, which is on my watch, which is impossible to read when racing but if anything happened I could then use it to help me to get home, which is more likely to happen on the sea and has, mind you we do have an audible sound aid "Erling".

Chris
Shanklin Sailing Club

nick replied:

I have to say I was pleasently suprised that fixed tactical compass' are out of class as I have never got on with them. But they are now part of mainstream sailing from olympics to oppies.
I thought anchors were legal in racing so long as no forward momentum was gained but how you can pull an anchor up without pulling the boat forward I dont know ,may be, cut the rope.
The last time I saw sailing instructions for the piers race it was mandatory to carry an anchor. Mobile phones not requied as they had only just been invented and were about the size of a cat battery,in fact they would have been more use as an anchor.
Has any one seen the current sailing instructions?
Also what is a praddel? I assume its different to an Oar

Peter Lytton replied:

Praddle is a trade mark- it is a paddle you can use with one hand, so the other can be used for steering. The advantage is that they store in the cocktail cabinet. They are orange and made of a plastic which floats.
Very popular with Oppies who stick them behind the bouyancy bags.

nick replied:

Hi thanks for that Ihave now found a picture of one do they work? we have s strong old tide down here.

Peter Lytton replied:

They work, though not as efficiently as a crew using a traditional paddle with both arms, but for the singlehanded sailor, who needs one hand to steer, they are a great bit of kit. If you sail 2 up, pack an extra Praddle, or a paddle for the crew.

George Stephen replied:

Nick's "how do they work" needs some answer if it wasn't obvious to him....

On a Sprint 15 it's best to lie stomach down on the tramp with head and shoulders ahead of the front beam, next to the mast. You grip one of the praddle's cross struts so that the wrong end is at the back of the forearm and the paddle part extending like a flipper from your hand, and use your whole arm as though you were swinging a tennis racquet to paddle.

Because you are pushing against water between the hulls, you go fairly straight without having to steer at all - and you can make small adjustments in direction by varying the swing of your arm.

I don't think you get as much boat movement for the energy you expend as you would from a full size paddle (eg as is the required standard kit for a Dart 18) But there's no doubt that you can get a Sprint 15 moving quite quickly if only for a short time (depends on your strength and stamina). I wouldn't want to use one for a long time against a fast foul tide (but I have used one for around 600m across a 4 knot tide, before it reduced inshore to around 2 knots and conditions became sailable again in the light wind).

I'm not sure what Nick thinks is a "strong old tide" but hopefully he'll get some idea from my example.

A few of us used our praddles after finishing in very light conditions at Draycote last Saturday, so that we would be clear of the line and other finishing boats....

I endorse Peter Lytton's suggestion of carrying 2 praddles if you sail 2 up, and if you happen to sail 1 up and have both aboard then you can still use both - one on each arm!

An ex-oarsman from 40 years ago, I prefer to avoid such exertions unless needs must.

George

Charles replied:

Good comments, but you won't REALLY need a GPS at Halifax, if the cloud comes down just keep sailing 'til you attach yourself to something harder than muddy water, get out turn the boat round & hope that the club house is in the opposite direction !

Charles replied:

I was surprised how effective mine was at Whitstable on the light wind day when we were all p(r)addling to stop disappearing out to sea. Although it was hard work it seemed more consistent than a paddle when single handed, as mentioned above it is still possible to steer.