Dart 15 Forums

Erling,
You make a fair point in that a single supplier prevents "arms races" between suppliers who continually make tiny mods to the product each year and thus force competitive buyers to keep upgrading perfectly good gear - this is commonplace in the world of windsurfing and it's dead annoying.

Andrew,
We're all (I hope) friends here and I don't have a problem with straight talking.

Duncan,
It's not my intention to undermine Brian at all. There's nothing wrong with questioning the status quo, even if the answers aren't what one expects. The present setup works well for competitive sailors and for the class as a whole of course, but for someone with just one, "end-of-life" sail and a very old boat a new sail is a crippling cost. I understand the point about re-sale value and don't argue with the maths, but a boat with a non-legal sail is going to be worth more than a boat with no sail at all.

I don't see why it should make people uncomfortable to explore cheaper options even if it's a minority view.

Hi Jaycb

You must assume a boat needs a sail! If it is a new sail you want then I am sure the £100 difference would be more than offset in resale value by having the class-legal one.

However, surely your answer is to look for a secondhand class-legal sail on this web site (the keen racers change them often) or perhaps ask Brian what he does with his old sails from the training boats. There is clearly a market!

Duncan Ford 1973

If a used boat was in the market, there is a strong possibility it may be used for racing - club or a traveller occasionally. (I know there are many boats out there just used for fun) To do this, it will need a class-legal main. If said boat didn't have a class-legal main, it would certainly reduce the resale value more than £100, as to compete against other sprints at your club or a traveller, it will set you back another £500 or so. This means it is either ruling out a sale to anyone who wants to race that boat, or the boat is going to sell for peanuts to compensate for the illegal sail.

So:
a) If you want to race your boat, buy a class legal main.
b) If you want to be able to sell your boat later on, for the price it's actually worth, buy a class legal main.
c) If £100 difference for a new sail seems a lot, think about the time period the Hyde sails last for: I've had mine for 5 years and it feels like its got at least another 5 in it. That's £10 a year. Buy Tesco Value carrots for 2 months a year and you're sorted. That's supposing the cheaper sail will last as long as the Hyde one, which it may not.

Buying a set of non class legal sails, in my view, is a complete no brainer.
I can't think of any good reason.
I can't use them to compete at any level. Even at club level where other people may not be aware my sails were out of class, I would know!
They reduce the value of my boat AND make it a much less attractive proposition to a potential buyer - a double whammy in one fell swoop.
The only reason I might consider it would be if they were to be used as a spare set for cruising and practising to prolong the life of my class legal set for competition. However, in that case, I'd be looking to purchase them for an awful lot less than £625!! Around £200 and I might be interested but I could probably purchase a good second hand set of legal sails for that, giving me two legal sets in case I needed a spare at an event.
So for me the message is : buy the class legal sails!
If you elect to buy the Cat Bitz sails, you'll save £100 for the dubious privelege of losing another few hundred and limiting your options in the process.
Am I missing something obvious?
P.S. Jacyb. I hope to have the pleasure of meeting you on the water at one of our events or see your name in one of the event reports when I'm putting the Mag. together.

George Love wrote: P.S. Jacyb. I hope to have the pleasure of meeting you on the water at one of our events or see your name in one of the event reports when I'm putting the Mag. together.

Hi George
I'd say that's unlikely.
May see you at the March show?

I've followed this thread with interest as a fair newbie to the class (normally you have to go to the 18 forum for real entertainment!), I do agree that it is really important to hold firm to the principles of one design that keeps 15 racing so close and fun. I recently bought a new main for £587.60 from windsport. Actually I think that compared to many classes that is pretty good value and I am sure they are doing all they can to keep prices as low as possible however...

I am interested to read Bob's thread about the class agreeing to keep Windsport as sole supplier as long as prices remain reasonable, and the 18% increase in the cost of the main over the past 10 months. At what point does the price become un-reasonable, who decides, and what happens then? I'm intrigued...

Anyway, Jaycb, I've been to a few open meetings, and the class are the friendliest bunch you could hope to meet, really lovely and helpful too. It is loads of fun doing race meetings, even at the back of the pack! I've got an old sail you are welcome to as well - it's not amazing by any stretch, but if your's is knackered, then for the price of a set of battens to go with it... Let me know - I'm sure it wouldn't cost much to send it over!

Hi Jacyb - I'll be at the show on the Saturday so hope to see you then. I've got a plan for beating those pesky lasers at your club!

Rob,
Thanks for your kind offer. If nothing turns up in the next couple of months I'll give you a shout.
As a matter of fact I had a really frustrating couple of days - found what sounded like a fantastic sail online but after lots of phone calls it turned out the guy had promised it to someone else... Grrrrrr!
I've pretty much decided that both the windsport and the cat-bitz sails are overpriced. If you add in the cost of battens, then (assuming I had £705, I'd follow Robin's advice re carrots, save up another £75 and get a DX!

Had an interesting discussion with a couple of guys who own a Dart 18 between them, and they reckoned that their sail has been repaired so many times there's hardly any original bits left on it. We had a laugh comparing it to Trigger's broom in "Only Fools & Horses" but it raises an interesting point - how much of a class legal sail (or indeed hull etc...) can be replaced/patched up/repaired before it's deemed no longer legal? Is it even policeable? (I doubt it) and if so, who decides?

George,
Look forward to hearing your plan, but it's the type of courses they lay that's the problem, double upwind sausages etc... etc

I've seen a Laser for sale for £350...

If you go for the Laser, I hope you'll not lose the Sprint.
I've still got this 'cunning plan' - see you at Ally Pally!

Jaycb wrote:

I've seen a Laser for sale for £350...

The price tells me everything I need to know:

Is it in class?
Is it competitive?

Old Sprints are as competitive as new Sprints. (Kyle, Robin, and Keith at Pentewan, 2009).

Is leaning-out an enjoyable experience?....

Andrew.

I don't think a laser sail will fit, Jaycb

Come to some events - we usually just sail round in a big circle and even then some of us try to take short-cuts

Others save money on membership fees and just do the events - better than having to avoid lasers!!!

Robert wrote:I don't think a laser sail will fit, Jaycb

Come to some events - we usually just sail round in a big circle and even then some of us try to take short-cuts

Jas,
It cannot be stressed too much the benefit of sailing with other similarly rigged catamarans (and better still Sprint 15s). That way you get good courses. If you sail predominantly with monohulls the courses have much too many broad reaches and runs to be competitive( boats like the RS600 and Contender have the same problem). Most of us sail with other cats and if not get our major kicks from the open meetings.
This is much more important than a new sail - which will not make any difference if you sail with monohulls. You are better advised to try a few opens before you consider a new sail. As I recall you are on the South Coast, Eastbourne way. This year we have quite a few events not too far from you. There are Herne Bay & Seasalter TTs in Kent, the National Championships at Netley (near Southampton) and even the Sport championships at Swanage. Why not make a mark in you diary for going to Herne Bay on 24/25 April? I'm sure that you will not regret it.
Cheers
Bob