Dart 15 Forums

I knew this would happen. When the DX was born, everyone said, "Oh, they're just having a bit of fun", or "What they do with their boats, is their concern", or "they're not going to gatecrash our TT events". Be assured, that was never the plan.

So, when the committee decides to disallow DX boats from TT's, everyone throws their arms up. Now, it seems, a breakaway faction is forming. And, damageingly, as rivals to standard Windsport Sprints. Is this how we show our appreciation to Windsport, who kept the class going after Laser dumped us?

My advice to all concerned is to drop DX for good. Get back to one-design sailing. We have lots of Sprint clubs across the country. Let us concentrate on building and adding to our fleets. Don't dilute them!

Steve Willis wrote:I can see arguments for both sides with regard to the DX so will leave that point alone for the moment other than to say that I applaud those developing and using it with a mind to encouraging expansion of the Sprint 15 'customer base'.

I do however find the suggestion in one of the Q&A items a little difficult to reconcile. It is suggested that the Association recommend a PY for the DX to SS Marine. To date the sails have not been used at more than a couple of events (one being the Seasalter TT in 2010 - where I was CRO for the event).
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Steve,

The way that I read that line in the statement was that the new DX class association (should one be formed) would recomend the PY for the DX to the manufacturer - SS Marine in this case being the sail manufacturer. ("In the case of the DX it is best that your Class Association suggests a number to SS Marine" to quote the full line here)

Martin S.

Steve Willis wrote:Bob,

........... However if the DX is to be marketed as a separate class - based on all Sprint 15 kit except the sail - there is a counter risk that the perception for potential new 'customers' is that the DX class may be the one to choose in preference and the same longer term downfall of the Sprint 15 fleet may apply.

Hi Steve,
Yes understood. Who can say? It is just that it seems folly to follow the Hurricane path. The DX already exists and has generated a fair bit of interest.
Following the Rooster8.1/ Laser example seems the best option in the circumstances.
Cheers
Bob
PS Very few catamaran classes have stuck it out with the one design concept. I see that the Shadow has introduced a new Spinnaker lately...........

Hi All,

I thought I'd join in the discussion seeing as I've just bought the DX rig. Firstly, it's great fun and over here in Hong Kong has generated a lot of interest in the 15 which has always been viewed as a girls boat and not to be taken seriously. Suddenly I've got F18 sailors asking questions and wanting to discuss rig! But to be honest, if I was in the uk I would have stuck with the standard sails for the following reasons:

1. There's such a competitive one design fleet that there's more than enough fun to be had racing
2. In strong winds I struggle with the standard sail as I only weigh 62kg so don't need the extra power (much lighter winds in HK)
3. I feel the shape and design of the hull on the 15 doesn't allow you to take advantage of the extra power, especially in waves. Unlike the modern cats, which are designed to have more buoyancy lower down and no large flat area driving the nose deeper once it goes under.
4. We don't have diamond wires so are unable to prebend the mast to depower in strong winds (something one of the F18 sailors pointed out) and I struggled to get enough downhaul on to really flatten the sail before I ran out of rope, but that could just be my setup.

It's a little disappointing to hear that the DX rig won't be allowed to sail against standard 15s to enable it to get a a fair PY rating (although we use SCHRS over here and I've gone to the dark side and sail a hobie 16 now so it doesn't effect me too much) but I can fully understand why the decision has been made.

Plus, as Andrew pointed out, it was only ever supposed to be a bit of fun and not to be class legal. I think that if the results showed the DX blowing away the 15 in races then it would be something worth considering but the results don't see that impressive (not to belittle the work and development that went into the new sail, but it needs a new hull shape, maybe dagger boards etc and that's a new boat).

Not sure if any of that was useful but thought I'd share. And for nipping around the islands here, having some fun learning how to get the best out of a completely different style of sail (and looking very cool!) I definitely don't regret buying the new sails.

All the best,
Gabriel

From someone relatively new to the class who has a perspective from the very back of the fleet, i feel the DX has a place within the class. I am not aware of much of the fleets' history, but casually looking at the footnote to all the events posted on this website, i believe i would be welcomed if i where sailing the 'Sting' version. This says to me that the class has previously recognised that a few sailers would like to get more from their Sprint 15. I believe also to be true that this set up required a different mast? Doesn't the DX bring that 'Sting' performance on the existing rig. You may point out now that the footnote is some legacy statement not removed from the page because......or its a mute point as no one has a Sting rig anyway.
I am delighted i joined the class 2 years ago and to find out that a DX rig existed to get a little more performance (one day) further cemented my belief that had chosen the right boat to mess around in.

Phil 1756.

** I’m probably a fundamental flaw in my logic, so sorry if it doesn’t make any sense or is contradictory**

My opinion is that the DX sail will attract new people into the class and take some people that normally sail unarig/sport mode into buying the new sails. I think not allowing the DX into the Sprint 15 class will do two things: 1) reduce the numbers of una/sport mode boats racing, even if only by a few, which will reduce the racing class size. 2) It will slow growth of DX class, as why would someone who is interested in big fleet sailing want to move from a fleet of 50+ boats, to one of 5?

So this suggests that not allowing the DX into the class will reduce the uptake of DX and reduce the numbers of una/sport sailors (only by a few), harming both sides. Allowing the DX into the class will produce an overall larger class, which allows a stronger association. It will increase the number of competitors at TT events, strengthening the Sprint 15 “family”. And after all, at TT events it’s not just the racing, it’s about seeing your friends and having fun. Even if there are 2 fleets now, there’s still camaraderie between them on the water. Adding another format won’t harm this, as most of the time the fleets will be mixed together anyway.

But of course allowing another format into the class will dilute the number of una/sport sailors. This shouldn’t be an issue for national events, as you will only be able to sail one format anyway. The problem comes at TT events, where even though you have an overall increase in competitors, there may be less sailing in each class. There will be 3 smaller fleets rather than 2 larger ones.

So it’s a toss up between maintaining the Sprint 15 as a one design racing class, or having a few more boats, and a stronger association. Obviously the one design view won.

Post deleted!

I thought I would aspire towards obtaining a DX rig. I discovered that Sport rig is quite enough for me. I have tended recently to go for una rig because it is easier to travel with and set up as well as pack away. The preparation time to sailing time ratio is better and more people sail in this format so the direct competition is better too. The PY advantage is also better. If I can keep up with others using this rig, I'll go for the lazy option. If I can't then I'll have to use the jib so that I can watch them more closely but it is harder work tacking and fiddling with more string.

I was initially disappointed that DX will no longer be a part of our TT scene as it is a focus of renewed interest in our class. Perhaps our committee has been quite astute, though. I hope that anyone obtaining the new rig will continue to be keen enough to carry on attending as many events as before. Anyone with such enthusiasm for the class may now have more events to compete in than before, should alternative ones now be viable for them. This is a gain for the rest of us if they take their boats elsewhere to be seen by those outside our class and there could be some new fans as a result.

I am pleased that Steve will be exhibiting next to the class stand at Alexandra Palace. It will be a good advertisement for the class, showing that there is an exciting variant available for anyone joining the class - good motivation to buy. The DX sail will also attract attention to our stand which will provide a "way in" for any such converts.

I'll also be interested to see where individual clubs "adopt" the DX as allowable for their racing. I suspect that some local conditions will provide a good opportunity for the rig to excel. Any growth in this area may provide extra competitors for our Nationals events, even if they only take part when the event is held at their own home club.

In all I think that the work done by Steve and Ray has been a positive benefit to the Sprint 15 class and I would like to thank them for all the effort and financial commitment they have donated to this cause so far. I would have preferred the rig to be included rather than excluded but understand the reasons for the Committee's decision. I hope to see more DX sails in the future.

Andrew Hannah wrote:On the subject of Stewartby, does anybody know the revised date for the Stewartby teach-in with Brian Phipps? The link on the home page merely takes you to the club directions and details.

Hi Andrew,

The dates are displayed in the events page in the main title of the page at the top. They are also in the timetable.

Martin S.

I thought the meeting was to talk about my reasons for the DX being at the show and have not had any invite to explain or formal contact from that meeting.
I guess the forum is it.
Thanks

I'm a bit slow catching up on this thread (no change there then)!

Whilst I enjoy both the comradery of the Dart (Sorry - Sprint) 15 and the wonderful association members, I also feel that we should as a fleet look to the future and consider potential performance enhacements that are available to all. By this I mean that if you want more power, the option of another sail format and in this case the DX option, is a sound and proven design. I have the good fortune of owning a Dart 18 alongside my 15's (yes, we've three in the family at the moment!), so I can take another boat out if I so wish.

Opening up the fleet and working with the Sprint 15 DX would in my opinion be seen as beneficial to existing and potential owners looking for more power. For those that don't want it and feel that a true one design only allows a different colour bit of string and an extra pulley at a push, then they too are catered for.

With the correct sail design and handicap system I belive the DX has a well earned place in our fleet.

I am concerned that having outlawed the DX at association events the possibility of a divided fleet or simply reduced numbers is now high.

Mark Aldridge wrote: Opening up the fleet and working with the Sprint 15 DX would in my opinion be seen as beneficial to existing and potential owners looking for more power. For those that don't want it and feel that a true one design only allows a different colour bit of string and an extra pulley at a push, then they too are catered for.

Sorry Mark, I don't agree. As you know, I am in the one-design camp. By this, I mean I want everybody else to be in the same format as myself.

Handicap racing is the very thing I don't want. If people want extra power, they can race a Dart 18, as you do. I don't have a problem with that.

This discussion has certainly stirred up some differing views,
Just want to chip in with a personal opinion.

I've done a lot of events and have done for quite a long time now.
If I ask myself, why keep doing it? what's the appeal ?
For myself, I'd say there's 2 main reasons,
a) the people in the class, (friends)
b) competitive one-design racing

And they are the overwhelming strengths we have. We're certainly not the fastest cat on the water, we all know that, but even so, we've still been the 1st or 2nd largest cat fleet in the country for years. So we must have something right!
Despite all the fancy new high-tech boats that have come on the scene over umpteen years, it's been the simple one design that's kept us going whilst the other stuff gets the headlines for a while then just as quick, falls out of fashion.
It's enabled everyone to compete on equal terms, wether you've got a new boat or a 20 year old boat, and you can sail on equal terms without spending a fortune.

Ray and Steve have done a lot of work to make the DX sail an interesting alternative, and it is, and it's a bit faster in most races (not all) when I've sailed against it. I could imagine using it at the club in the handicap racing.
But would you fragment our one design class to introduce it?
Personally, I think that would be stretching the one-design principle too far. I don't think that's a good move.

Regards...Gordon

Just on Robert's point of whether clubs would adopt the DX, many of us sail in handicap fleets so I can see no reason why a club would not allow the DX in this situation. I know my club is more than happy for anyone to turn up & pay them money to sail! It seems to me that it would be a bad thing if a club did say no, as a DX owner would sail elsewhere or possibly move on to another class. Only large clubs with class racing may object as the OD would have more calculations to do (though this point is irrelevant if una & sport modes sail in the same fleet). Clearly the club fleet could object, but this also might be counterproductive.

No worries Andrew.. I can see all sides of the debate and prefer to try and encourage fleet growth. I've beaten the DX on the water and been behind it too, same thing happens in conventional mode and is absolutely no different to sprinters/2 uppers so not a worry to me. In fact I would welcome the challenge of trying to beat them and would just whistle for more wind!!

Do you hold the same opinion of racing against a Dart 15 in a different mode to yourself then? If so best avoid the open meetings.