Dart 15 Forums

Hi George,
Thanks for the info - the mistery deepens.
I looked at the Gurnard results for last year just in case they could have a residual star performer. I see that the Sprint 15 Sport has ben dumped into the fast handicap with the monos* but they have only one guy (M Scott) who has made a few appearances and he certainly has not done very well so they are not the explanation.
Regards
Bob

PS I know the handicapping guy at Queen Mary - it is Andrew Craig. He is also the chairman of the Great Lakes handicapping group - I'm the Grafham representative on this committee so I know him well.
* sad news if you consider what a strong fleet of Sprint 15s they had 5-10 years ago

Andymac wrote:The RYA PY scheme is very different, in that it relys on a dat base of handicap race results over the past 3 years. The numbers the RYA come up with are based on an average performance for the particular class. The sail area of a particular class/configuration does not come into it.
The large drop in the Sport mode PY would suggest that there have been some very favourable results over the past 3 years at the old PY of 883, hence the 'adjustment'.

Thanks for your erudite explanations, Bob, and contributions from others. After looking at what has been uncovered so far I believe there may be a case for asking the RYA to review this newest PY Number. If, as Andymac has indicated, the rating is based on a three year average of results logged then it might be reasonable to expect the PY number not to suddenly shoot down but rather to move more progressively over a three-year period. I don't think it has done this and, as such, there may be fair grounds for the new PY to be re-examined by the issuing body.

Furthermore, it would seem very unlikely for one or more sailors not known to the Association to have far more effect upon the relative speed of sport mode than the addition of 2 sq m of sail can amongst regular class sailors. If by dint of sailing against monohulls in a particular isolated location this has come about, then the statistical technique used to procure the PY would seem to be questionable in itself.

Hi Bob your a hard man to please . 9 starts, 7 wins and a second, nearly all in favourable conditions either blowing or very low tides where i wouldnt chance a dagger board,i might have to try the hiking method this year to cherry pick some wins on handicap with that new pn.
Martin.

If it's any interest, Stewpot contributed just under 100 races to the Standard Mode and 50 races to the SPORT mode (mainly Robin Hall, plus others). The number of races used for the calculations is quite low for the Sport Mode (358). All our races were sent in using the pys.org.uk tool and it reports out for Stewpot at 950 for Standard and 958 for Sport mode which, to be honest, is more like a personal handicap.

We're in the process of agreeing numbers for 2013 and the consensus is that we'll hold to sport number at the old handicap. The rationale is a) we don't want to alienate sport mode boats from our fleet b) unless its so windy everyone's packing-up, the Sprint 15 isn't likely to be a threat to our pot-hunting Solo and Streaker brethren c) a -23 deduction doesn't make sense given the analysis we've had for our club.

We've got enough numbers sailing regularly for the PYS to be an irrelevance for us right now. Simon's correct that it's been a struggle this winter to keep fleet racing going, but we're looking forward to a warm and windy summer!


Regards

Karl.
Stewpot.

capella wrote:Hi Bob your a hard man to please . 9 starts, 7 wins and a second, nearly all in favourable conditions either blowing or very low tides where i wouldnt chance a dagger board,i might have to try the hiking method this year to cherry pick some wins on handicap with that new pn.
Martin.

Hi Martin,
Thanks for your reply. Is the Sprint 15 Sport always in the Fast Handicap start? I see that you are doing well in the RS700. I found a few more Sprint 15 Sport results on looking through the Gurnard website again but in 5 races you were the only finisher which cannot be used for handicapping. In 2012 that just leaves 2 races in which you were 1/3 and 2/3. I would quite like to see what the RYA PYS makes out of it. Do you know your club handicapping expert who inputs the results to PYS? Can you put me in touch with him, please?
Regards
Bob

Hi Bob i will try and find out who does the pn returns (if someone does). I have no knowledge of how the pn results are considered as in is coming second in a 2 boat race thought of as a better result then say 5th in a 20 boat race or would it go on percentages? The dart15 has been in the fast handicap for about 4 years and i dont think another one has finished a race for 3 years,there are still about 10 in the dinghy park. I am quite looking foreward to trying the uni rig somewhen but not to sure about tacking when its rough as guts.
Martin.

capella wrote:Hi Bob i will try and find out who does the pn returns (if someone does). I have no knowledge of how the pn results are considered as in is coming second in a 2 boat race thought of as a better result then say 5th in a 20 boat race or would it go on percentages? The dart15 has been in the fast handicap for about 4 years and i dont think another one has finished a race for 3 years,there are still about 10 in the dinghy park. I am quite looking foreward to trying the uni rig somewhen but not to sure about tacking when its rough as guts.
Martin.

Hi Martin,
Good show I would like to chat to your PY man (by email) - I'm sure you will have one as your club is very switched on to that sort of thing. For PY analysis I think it is much better statisically to have results in large fleets - then in your example the Sprint 15 Sport is being compared to 19 other boats and helms. Better still if there are several Sprint 15s. If you are first in a race of 2 boats it is just 2 boats compounded by the ability of the 2 helms.
Cheers
Bob
PS I do hope you plan to do the Sport Nationals at Yaverland on 17-19 May - it is just a short trip across the island. I hear that Paul Tanner and Robin Leather plan to give it a go. Perhaps you can have a go at contacting the owners of some of the other Sprint 15s that are not being used to get them to as well. You never know it might kick them into life

In the effort to find the Sprint 15 Sport sweet spot that has caused the RYA PN to drop so dramatically we have contacted Netley and Brightlingsea and neither clubs have sailors who are sailing Sport mode.
Brightlingsea sailors have given up sailing sport mode because they cannot make it pay compared to the unarig boat in the short tacking in the creek. Brightlingsea like many clubs have adjusted the handicaps upwards as follows:
Unarig mode from 918 to 955
Sport mode fom 883 to 917
This maintains the ~4% speed difference between the modes and is the way we would expect but the opposite way from the RYA change to 860.
Any other ideas for the possible location of a club which could be responsible welcome............
Cheers
Bob

Has someone keyed in the wrong information (may from a different class of boat) when entering in the data ?

Simon 1970

simon wrote:Has someone keyed in the wrong information (may from a different class of boat) when entering in the data ?

Simon 1970

Hi Simon,
It seems hard to do on the PYS system but a data entry or analysis error seems a real possibility. We still have not found a location that has got a glut of good results which can explain it.
Regards
Bob
PS Simon Rowell has confirmed that it is not Felixstowe Ferry.............

Since Robert raised the issue I have compiled the chart on the link below showing how the 2 formats of Sprint 15 compare over the last 10 years of the Class Association events a period over which the PN ratio was consistently around 4% (as it has been for 25 years)

http://www.sprint15.com/pics/viewer.php ... &imgid=961

I know it is small but blue squares are standard mode results and red ones are Sport mode results. First place is at the top, etc

It can be seen that the results distribution show a broadly fair handicap position over the period - certainly not one that suggests the Sport mode handicap was advantageous. Indeed the only Sport mode sailors who have won any Sprint 15 traveller event over the last 10 years have all been Sprint 15 Sport National Champions (Robin Leather 4; George Carter 3; Kevin Dutch 2 and Mike Cemm 1 - an illustrious group).
Sadly I can only do the plot based on corrected time positions as we do not have the timing details of these races as that will be on the host clubs computer systems. Obviously if I had the timing details I could have rerun the analysis using the 6.3% speed difference that the new PN requires.

You can see, however, from the chart that the results of the last 10 years DO NOT favour the Sport mode boats so I conclude that the right thing to do is to use a Class handicap of 883 for the Sport mode boats for the coming season.

The committee will vote on this proposal on Saturday at the Marconi event.

Cheers

Bob

PS I do not seem to be able to make the plot bigger. If Martin can magnify it I would very much appreciate it.

You can choose a different resolution on the image to zoom in.

Much better to forget the PY number altogether and make all races sport mode.

Liam wrote:Much better to forget the PY number altogether and make all races sport mode.

I couldn't possibly add anything to that!

Hello all,

Sounds like the only sensible way forward! At last, a convert?
Go Sporty!!

Robin

Liam wrote:You can choose a different resolution on the image to zoom in.

Much better to forget the PY number altogether and make all races sport mode.

Hi Liam
So I see you sailed unarig at Marconi at the weekend (along with several of others who often sail Sport such as George Stephen and Stewart Pegum) I guess the light wind was a factor but was the 860 handicap the final nail?
Cheers
Bob