Dart 15 Forums

WEIGHT, WEIGHT,WEIGHT
It would appear that 2017 is "confession year". I have been racing 15"s since 1989, had 5 boats during that time, but never felt the need to weigh any of them.
I weigh 75 kg & know other Sprint sailors who are over 105 kg. Under the new "weight is everything regime" I guess I must expect to have to carry 30kg. I am in the twilight of my sailing days & I do not think I can pull the boat up the beach with that in my pockets!
I try to keep my boat clean, skegs in good repair & make sure all the equipment works properly. Some others do not have the time for this & I expect to have to carry a further weight for this unfairness!
I have a boat with the cheaper one piece mast, 2.5 kg lighter than the two-piece - more weight!

I have a number of sales leaflets of the Spark in Panthercraft days ( SAD!!) where the sailing weight was advertised as 104 kg ( including a two-piece mast).
There is no other reference to a specific all-up weight that I am aware of , in the rules or otherwise.

A huge thank you to all families that we have met & had much fun with & A BIG THANKS to Brian & Cookie for all their efforts.

Grumpsy

It's OK Stuart, nobody is going to make you carry as much weight as David Groom. That would be grossly unfair.

Hi Stuart
I weigh 25 Kg more than you and have been happy to race against you without a problem with this as we are all differant, but I have when sailing a Production one design classa when the new boats have been made lighter after being promissed that the boats weight would not be changed when the cocktail cabinets were removed. They dont fit the 15 boat rule after weighing 60 boats not one comes near. When the first Out of Africa was cheeked before production both Fraser & Brian were happy with its wait of 34Kg and this did not come up as snag, so how can boats coming in at less than 30 Kg be right?

Hi Guys

I appreciate your views. This is a difficult issue for us, because up till now we’ve never been a weight specific class. Consequently if you study our rules you’ll see they never mention a minimum weight. Instead the rules state; this is a manufacturer one-design. You can debate what exactly that means, but I’ve always taken it to mean that there’s a specification for the boat and the manufacturer builds it to that spec.
We have references to the weight of “the boat” but without stating what it is.
Our specification and even our SCHRS rating show a weight of 104kg, and it’s been there ever since the very first days in 1978. But it’s never been the official minimum weight, because we don’t have one. Having said that, all the new boats are over that weight any way.

Now what’s happened is some people think that the new boats are underweight and have raised the issue. This is especially difficult because they’ve been in use, sailing amongst us for the last 3-4 years and our manufacturer, Windsport, is adamant they’re built to the correct specification. Another complication is, it also turns out there’s already a fair spread of weights between the old boats themselves.
I can tell you this has caused some heated debate within the committee, and we have a meeting planned for the end of January to try and resolve the issue.

Up till now we’ve always been an accommodating and easy going class, we’ve never been the type of class where people go around with a set of scales hunting for the lightest boats or masts, or trying to value someone's boat by how much it weighs. We let people sail one-up or 2 up, and even if that means the sum of 2 very light people is still less than one heavy person we still let them use an extra sail, we don’t care if you’re a heavyweight or a lightweight, or have a one or 2 piece mast, and up till now we’ve all accepted what we have so we can all sail together and enjoy our sport.
Some other classes regulate for all those things, it's available if you really want it, but we never have.

Before this gets out of hand, I would just ask everyone to reflect on what we’ve achieved with the class over the years and that includes the last 4 years since the new boats have been available. When so many other classes have gone to the wall, we’ve had 2 trips to Carnac, we’ve been at the top of the list for National’s entries, we’re regulars at the Dinghy Show, and we’re still having new boats made with a full spares back-up. We should be proud of what we’ve achieved and what we have. Before everyone gets too worked up, that's something worth thinking about before you tear it all down.

Regards
Gordon

Stuart

I have a solution to your problem of pulling the boat up the beach with more weight, fit a drogue or sea anchor hung off the rear beam, they are quite light, could I helpfully suggest the 3 metre diameter one.

http://www.lalizas.com/product/31-sea-a ... or-drogue-

regards

Keith 1840

Gordon
Do you think we would have this large a fleet if Nick hadnt stoped Laser building the lighter boats 20 years ago?
You have never answered my e-mail about how come Brian & Fraser were happy when the first Out of Africa was cheeked for snags before the production run and were happy with the 34 Kg when the now say 29Kg is right, I would of hoped that as they new the people buying them were going to race them they would of had this changed?
We have not had to have a given weight as the 15 boat rule covers this.
I sailed 2018 at Grafham with the added weight and the boat was still great so make it the same as was promised and we still have a great boat and a good future.

Keith wrote:The accuracy and the precision between weighing devices has worried me a little in the reporting of the weights. Commercial calibrated (calibrated by standard weights) load cells, e.g. 100Kg maximum weight has a typical variability of 0.025% or 8g in 30 Kg, but I came across the article below that shows that bathroom scales are not as good - I should get out more! Many are out by as much as 0.9Kg and some, admittedly <2% were out by 1.8Kg which would be crucial for the weights that are being discussed here.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3890563/

kind regards

Keith 1840

Quite right, Keith my confidence limits did not include an allowance for the measurement accuracy. Much of the weight data was generated by better scales than bathroom scales. I have sent you details in an email. Adding measurement errors do not materially impact the conclusions.
Regards
Bob

Hi folks,although I am not so active on the circuit nowadays, I am still passionate about my 15. So here is my input.

In my mind there was a key meeting between your Association with Windsport in March 2012, to discuss COST SAVING MEASURES, prior to getting UK production restarted. I was at that meeting, and as your then secretary, I wrote the minutes of that meeting.

All of the manufacturing changes that were discussed had the common theme of reducing costs to enable a UK made 15 to be sold at a realistic price. At no time in the entire meeting was there any discussion about deliberately reducing the weight of the boat. Some changes would result in different weights :- using the larger section 18 front beam would add weight, but would reduce costs as Windsport benefited from only extruding and stocking 1 item; removing the cocktail cabinets, a clear manufacturing cost saving, which would give a weight saving, which would help compensate for the weight increases from the larger front beam and larger beam sockets. In the interests of getting UK production production re started, your Committee supported these changes, which were subsequently passed at the next AGM. All of this was about saving manufacturing costs, NOT saving weight.

Removal of the cocktail cabinets to save costs was an already established manufacturing technique for 15's. A batch of 15's were made in the 80's targeted at Sailing Schools, BUT to compensate for the lower hull weights, weight correctors were carried at each end of the front beam. My original 15, Spark Naked, carried such correctors, and I can well remember Gerry Lewin looking for them at my first Nationals.

Ours is a one design boat, so we should set a minimum hull weight and add correctors to compensate. I will leave it to far greater skills than mine to say what that weight should be.

Cheers Keith Bartlett FREDDIE 1962

Erling

I think what you're referring to was nearer 25 years ago, well before my time and I think yours and with a different manufacturer, when they changed the weight and the sail.
Nick also played around a lot himself with a spinnaker and we didn't use that, we also didn't use the DX sail, though I know some people bought that and played around with it.
The irony of this, is that at your own club you have introduced a Non-one-design sail for Sprint 15 events. What can I say..?

I can't speak for Brian re: the South African boats, but from what he tells me, the first boat was inspected by him and Bob, I'm sure Bob will comment on that, when the other boats turned up there were some quality issues. Because of this, the boats were sold at a discounted price. As I understand it, the difficulty with quality control was one of the main reasons for bringing manufacture back to the UK. We don't have a quality problem now.

Regards
Gordon

Hi Gordon yes we have introduced a Non-one-design sail for Sprint 15 but this sail can only be used for club racing at Shanklin Sailing Club, not Sprint 15 events, for that we have to use the Class Legal Sail.

Regards
Chris

Please read the document which I have just added to the rules page - http://www.sprint15.com/rules/sprint%2015-weights.pdf

In summary the committee decided that the latest boats do not conform to the rule that was introduced to allow them to be class legal without cocktail cabinets.

10y) Allow front beam using the larger Dart 18 section front beam together with strengthened beam sockets in the hulls and removal of the rigid inner mouldings of the cocktail cabinets replaced by mesh bags below the hatch covers provided that the overall weight of the boat is unchanged.

The boats we weighed with sail numbers 2015 and above were found to be significantly lighter than any boat we found with cocktail cabinets.

As a result we are requiring all new boats to carry 6kg of weight correctors from the Summer Series onwards.

The association will pay all the costs involved in the addition of the weights.

This is a clarification of the existing rule:

5.3. A boat shall be allowed to race only if it satisfies the requirements for a valid Measurement Certificate. Boats without cocktail cabinets in each hull shall carry correction weights.

which was brought in after Laser tried to introduce underweight boats.

It is likely that at the AGM we will seek to introduce a minimum weight for all boats. This will only happen if people want it. Similarly if people are unhappy with the decision above they can try to pass a rule change amending 10y.

Hi Liam
I am reliably informed that are 3 of the new boats that have not been weighed, 2015 being one of them, is the commitee saying 1 size fits all with regards to correctors

Simon

Hello Simon,

welcome back to the fleet.

is the commitee saying 1 size fits all with regards to correctors

That is the case at the moment. We are just compensating for the missing cocktail cabinets.

If a minimum weight is brought in at the AGM then it is likely that we would also change the rules so that nobody is asked to add more weight than is required to get to the minimum weight.

That would also mean that if there were any older boats below that weight they would also have to add correctors.

Just for your information, if anybody quotes 104kg to you, it comes from the 1978 Panthercraft marketing department and they didn't measure the mast properly either.

If anybody has any specific issues regarding the weight issue they can contact Chris Tillyer on christillyer@hotmail.com

My comments here are my own, the PDF is the committee's.

simon wrote:Hi Liam
I am reliably informed that are 3 of the new boats that have not been weighed, 2015 being one of them, is the commitee saying 1 size fits all with regards to correctors

Simon

Hi Simon,
Your boat was weighed by Brian at Windsport. Brian reported it to be 105Kg.
Cheers
Bob