Dart 15 Forums

Erling wrote:

Am I the only person that doe's not like the P course, I have always been told we race it because of popular demand, but I have never heard this said to me, and each time I race it I just hope I don't have a collision as im sure the insurance company would say it was reckless behaviour

George Stephen replied:

I think that the P course is little different in effect from the trapezoid course. The difference is that relative to wind the last 2 legs are in reverse order, plus of course having the downwind gate on the inverse P course. If you have difficulty ynderstanding this, first draw the inverted P, then plot a new mark downwind from the Inverse P mark so that from that new mark to the gate will be a leg parallel to that from the Inverse P wing wmark to the P mark. The new shape added is a parallogram, proving the point.

There are 2 danger areas on the inverted P course. First is the P mark, where boats electing to reach broadly for the P mark are obviously "inside" boats that reached higher, and then gybed onto starboard. But the former are still on port when they reach the P mark, and the wallies now on starboard think they have right of way over the inside boats, and don't realise they are overlapped and inside at an offwind mark.

At a Nationals I was pushed onto the P mark by another boat still on port, because he was trying to avoid the wallies on starboard who failed to give water at this offwind mark. One of them even shouted "those boats on port have no rights"; even then he was a leading sailor in terms of performance, but his knowledge of rules remains suspect. I think that the only way round this problem (which doesn't affect the very front of the fleet, and probably not the back) is for the Race Officer at brieiing to make it clear what the right of way rules are at the P mark. In this respect, my requests for this have always been turned down.

The other danger points occur as boats beating from the gate to the line cross the downwind boats that are behind them. There is a tendency for downwind boats on starboard to call starboard on upwind boats also on starboard, and take some very loud convincing (you shout into the wind if you are the beating boat) that they have to give way to the beating boats. (did you guess again it's happened to me) Again, it's not usually a problem at the front of the fleet, and asking the Race Officer to make the right of way position clear at briefing has not worked to date). The same can happen on the port side of the gate, but is less common as the downwind boat is on port.

A third problem can occur downwind at the line, where the committee boat and the OD form marks of the course - boats forget and if you are on port as you come to the committee boat, expect to yell loudly at boats on starboard, which like at the P mark forget they have to give water to inside overlapped boats (and again it's happened to me!).

On the first occasion I was persuaded not to protest. Fellow competitors can expect me to call loudly for water as an inside boat from well over 2 boat lengths to the relevant mark, and to protest every boat that fails to give water.

There is one saving grace for the inverse P course, and that is that it gives an opportunity to overtake a boat just in front by choosing to take the other route. But of course this can only work if there is no net wind/tide bias - and I've seen this only rarely.

I think the disadvantages far outweigh this potential advantage, and I would prefer to sail trapzoid courses.

I hope that that this email is seen, read and taken seriously by our committee. I suspect it won't be unless enough of us make adverse noise, mainly because the committee members don't see these as problems because they don't have gaggles of boats about them at these marks of the course.

The solution for you, Erling, is to sail better and faster so you are clear of the wallies, and I think you can.

George Stephen

Jonathan replied:

As someone who is still learning to race a Dart 15, (and therefore probably would be a "wally"), I had to read your posting George several times, and I'm still not sure I understand all the intricacies of who has rights over who.

I have never raced an inverted P course, and yet will be taking part in this years Nationals (I've never seen an inverted P club racing). If you look at Bob's recent post you'll see that there are several newcomers like myself who have never been to the Nationals before and could well be in the same situation.

I would therefore agree that if the RO wants to set a course that invites boat contact, that the rights of way are clearly explained at the briefing!

Perhaps we should refrain from using words like "wally" if we want to attract new sailors to the Dart 15 - remember all the experts were beginners at some time.

Jonathan.

Geoff Howlett replied:

If there is this much confusion as to right of way, even amongst the front of the fleet, then a "wallie" such as myself would rather not have the risk of collision and ruined nationals that this course would seem to induce.

Dartful Codger II replied:

Please don't get too worked up about this course . There is
nothing risquee about this , or any other shape course for
that matter .The Nationals courses are always quite large ,
with plenty of room for everyone . It's simply a case of
brushing up on your rules , which you should be well aware of anyway , and THINKING AHEAD of potentially awkward
situations developing before they happen , so you are NOT
one of the casualties . Oh - and one other thing - Don't let
the Nationals scare you into retreat . You will find us a
very friendly and accommodating fleet , always willing to
encourage 'newcomers' NOT WALLIES , rather than chastise
them . So come on down , have a go and enjoy yourself .
I promise you will not regret it . See you there !

Bob replied:

Hey guys, lighten up. I love variety. We have got two courses to choose from and if I had my way we would have 3.
The trapezoid is one of my favourites but so too is the inverse P. 3 days of the same course would be boring. Quite a lot of people like the inverse P. The downwind gate is great fun and the advantage over the trapezoid is that it tends to constrain the PRO into using tight reaches which are good fun and shortens the reach, which the heavyweights like. At the Nationals we tend to quickly spread out and as the courses tend to be large, any conjestion at mark 3 does not cause much of a problem.
Any ideas for a 3rd course so we could have a different one every day? I would do a regular Olympic but the heavy weights don't like the run and the broad reaches are not so good. Any better suggestions welcome.
Bob

Bob replied:

I meant to say "shortens the run" not "shortens the reach"
Cheers
bob

George replied:

Sorry if I have worked up Erling's concern about the P course - of course it's all right if everyone knows the rules at offwind marks and obstructions, and I hope that competitors will brush up on the relevant rules (18 and 19 seem to be the one's to look up).

But what did I say about the reactions from the front of the fleet - I quote from memory "they're big courses with plenty of room" and "everybody gets spread out", so where's the problem - "lighten up, guys"? Some of us are telling you in no uncertain terms that what you say might be true for most competitors in most races, but most mid-fleet competitors will have sailed in a number of races round and near the incident points I list in gaggles of boats, and encountered problems.

For the sake of not discouraging the inexperienced, I don't think the problems give rise to lots of danger - my problems mainly occurred in light or very light wind conditions, when lost places proved very difficult if not impossiblt to recover. But if there is a strong breeze (or heavier) then care is essential.

By the way, it now looks as though I won't make it to the Nationals for the second year running - for the usual health reasons. I've picked up an infection which is causing problems....

Best wishes, whatever course, TO ALL SAILORS

George

PS for Bob on courses.

If you want to sail triangles, then consider making either the leg after the windward mark to the wing mark or the leg from the wing mark to the leeward mark the same sort of reach as from the windward mark to the wing amrk on the Inverse P course. It doesn't split up the long run/very broa reach that is the balance of the triangle, but it does give some opportunity for sailors to try different lines here (there are some conditions when broad reaching and gybing may pay off over a direct route, especially if you gain the inside overlap at the mark at the end of the leg)
I agree that the downwind leg of the sausage is undesirable - we can always make the sausage a different leg of the triangle.

Chris replied:

As a new sailor to Dart15's but someone who has been sailing for some 40 odd years, I am a bit puzzeled as to the term Wally! does this refer to a Dart15 sailor in general or just a newcommer to Dart15's or as it would appear someone who hasn't managed to keep up with the new rules and the new courses devised to confuse and bewilder sailors, either way dont forget you are trying to recruit more Dart15 sailors not frighten them away.
I was listening to our club members talking about this P course and to be quite truthfull I felt it rather daunting and untill I felt more confident I dont think I would be venturing to the mainland to take part in any Dart15 racing or Nationals.
Chris

Bob replied:

Well the Nationals is over. We had a great time. We had many new members who are just learning and who had never done a Nationals before (including one 70 year old who has recently acquired his first dart 15). We used the inverse P course and no one had any problems. Even Erling managed OK.
Don't be put off,Chris, by all this heavyweight discussion - it's a piece of cake, honest.
Cheers
Bob

Bob replied:

Hi George, sorry to hear you are poorly.
I hope you are soon recovered and sailing again.
Regards
Bob