Dart 15 Forums

Bob wrote:

I have to finalise our Dart 15 Programme for 2002 fairly soon. It is coming on well - a draft version is on this Web Page in the "Events" section. I have had very little feedback to the magazine article I did on the possibility of organising a "fun" event for cruising and messing about rather than racing.
The options as I see it are as follows:
- do nothing
- tack on a few days at Whitstable before the Nationals eg 29/29 August. Nick is happy to set this up. Cruising across to Thorpe Bay, in Essex would even be possible.
- set up a separate weekend event - such as the article in the Latest "Fifteen Minutes of Fame"
- tack on a day to the Stokes Bay event on 4 June (Jubilee day)
If you are interested in any of these please let me know
Thanks
Bob

Mark Aldridge replied:

Bob

A couple of days before the nationals gets my vote.

Cheers

Mark

Dartful Codger II replied:

Bob,
I'm inclined to agree with Mark, and fundamentally it needs to be tagged on to another meeting, as I don't get the impression many would travel purely to a 'fun' event .
Logically, Whitstable makes sense because :-
1. It is relatively close to the hub of Dart 15 sailors ,
geographically speaking .
2. Hopefully there will be a large gathering of D15s
present anyway, from a social point of view .
3. There would seem to be various places of interest to
sail to , depending on the weather conditions. Stokes
Bay is nice but a bit on the busy side with regard to
other boat traffic, as well as giving more potential
tide problems to the less experienced helms .
4. The 'Nationals' format usually includes this activity .

Those are some of my views , for what they are worth .
Bottoms up ! Paul

George Stephen replied:

Earlier this year (Chat - 18/11 onward) our super website manager made a plea for help in geting his D15 to go faster. I hope that Bob Carter's offer of help bears fruit.

The D15 Association's annual training weekend is the obvious opportunity for improvement as well as the basics, but its understandably limited annual frequency means that an unfortunate clash of priorities can mean unacceptable delays for the would be improver.

I've recently suggested (through a separate email route) that we try to fit in a (shore-based) training session at each 2 day D15 open meeting, when there is usually time available for visiting, if not local, Pros to pass on advice as well as jaw with friends and sometimes imbibe a few jars. I suggested training by someone not at the very front of the fleet but someone who may well understand the more basic problems of those who need help to stay near the faster sailors (but not the fastest!) for longer, but hopefully with some front of the fleet sailors on hand and watching to endorse (or vary) advice given, or provide those useful gems for the improvers rathe the beginners. I think we could fit this in on a many-one basis (some of us saw that Yves Loday provided advice to Spitfire sailors at Grafham at the Grafham Cat Open).

At the Nationals we have the Pro-Am competition, which is supposed to help the weaker sailors by Pros providing some advice to Ams, not just as another Trophy which might be won. My own experience on the "Am" end has been terrible (in one case for genuinely understandable reasons but not the others - I think and hope my limited experience is unusual!) So on the few occasions I've been a "genuine" Pro I've tried to assist my Am as much as I could, but I have to admit it's not that easy to set up and arrange - especially when the Pro-Am pairs listing comes out so late.
The current way of setting up the Pro_am list doesn't help either, when it can pair 2 helms who would on pre-event results reckoning be both Pros or both Ams, just because of unusual performance in the early races.

I think we should persist with the Pro_Am Trophy at the Nats, but try to get all us Pros to take the training element seriously by setting aside specific limited times (2 sessions of 30 minutes each?, with the first session starting at a specific "time and place to meet to find out the pairings") at the Nats for Pro-Am advice giving, which both parties are commited to observe by a judicious choice of wording in the entry conditions. Also, we should base the Pro_Am pairs list on pre-event information as far as that is available, even though it might then turn out to be "inaccurate" for a few (but no more so than the current approach!), so that the list is available at the start of the first scheduled Pro-Am session. Yes, I know it is a regimented approach, but I think we may have to do it if we want the D15 Class to genuinely reflect the "friendly class" vibes that our Chairman loves to present, and does live up to (I recall listening to a session between Nick as Pro and his Am at one Nats, when my Pro was less than helpful!).

But what better opportunity for some real Pro-Am training could be afforded by combining this fun sailing with "on the water" training, especially if it ties up with the Nats? "On the water" training always has the benefit of "practice, not just theory" to cement the lessons. I'd do this on a D15 to D15 approach, avoiding the need for lots of noisy power boats and affording the advantage of Ams seeing the benefit of the advice as their boat speed, speed of tacking, etc etc improves towards that of the tutoring Pro on his D15.

I think the Fun Sailing "days" afford an opportunity for real benefit for Ams, even with a quite high ratio of Ams to Pros. But it depends on enough "Pros" turning up to provide the advice to be given - this will be a real problem as their attendance cannot be required and guaranteed. The first attempt might have to be a "best endeavours" only basis.

We also have to recognise that not all Pros are natural teachers (there's a really good D18 sailor at my club, but getting the gems out of him depends on the Ams asking the right questions as he is not a natural teacher or spotter of why the Am is making mistakes). The top Pros are sometimes so good that they forget some of the errors that are all too easy for less experienced D15ers to make, but are likely to spot them if sailing almost alongside an Am (the converse of "what is the good guy in front of me doing right that I have to copy?" that the Am can't always spot!). Which is why I am so enthusiastic about the opportunity presented for some "on the water D15 to D15 training"!

If I'm ok health-(and now also fitness-)-wise, my lack of other commitments like work should enable me to be a willing volunteer whatever is decided about timing. But as I've said at Open Meetings and Nats, "as I'm here I must think I'm ok"....

George

Anonymous replied:

There seems to be quite a thing about different abilities in the Dart 15 fleet.

This phenomena is true of any discipline and any sport for a trillion different reasons, namely: physical condition, equipment, competition, phsychological state, natural ability, conditions, training etc etc etc.

BUT with all of the above taken into consideration and with the exception of .....well not anyone really the ONE thing that WILL make a difference is TIME ON THE WATER SAILING!

I started Darting a couple of years ago now and was er....cr*p at the beginning (some may say I still am!). I was late for the start, slower than everyone else everywhere and generally struggled.

To overcome this I practiced time and time again and sailed as much as I could asking daft questions along the way to the more experienced fleet (something that Grafham has, thankfully!). Finally the penny dropped and I became more and more competitive, occassionally (and I mean occassionally)I even stayed in front of the fast boys until the line too.

I am sailing a litte less at the moment for various reasons and was rusty to say the least at my last outing. This is not because I am a different or less able sailor, just that I'm out of practice..

So, if you want to be competitive PRACTICE LOTS or if you are not able or can't be arsed then enjoy life further back in the fleet.

Mark

George Stephen replied:

Mark,

I share your persistence, your recognition of the necessity to ask questions and your recognition that performance (especially getting near the front of the fleet) will vary according to time spent recently on the water. It took me a number of years to get my Nats results into the (very bottom of) the top ten. But others are not so patient or understanding, and some just don't always have the time for a concentrated effort on improvement.

Remember that Laser Centre no longer actively market the D15 (arguably they discourage enquirers in favour of the D16!). The real marketer of the D15 is the D15 Association and this means its members, all of us and not just those who give their time so willing. Far easier to retain all those new fifteeners who become somewhat disappointed than to recruit new ones, especially if/when there aren't people around who may express a grudge against the boat, even the generality of its sailors, and put off what might have been another new recruit to the D15 fold.

Does this explain better my current crusade to make use of all possible opportunities to improve the standards of the fleet?

George

Mark Aldridge replied:

George

The Dart 15 is most definitley under promoted by the Laser Centre.. They really should look at how many 16's turn out on a regular basis.

We are a very lucky fleet to have the likes of Bob C who tirelessly promotes and helps with all things Dart 15.

The standard of the fleet is of course dependant on who's in it. To go back to my original point it's time on the water again..

A way to improve the overall standard is to entise more people onto the water, particularly in the winter months when the wind is generally better.

I'm all for improving, but know it's solely down to me to get on with it.

Mark

Tim replied:

Extra days at the nationals gets my vote,
I`m told Stokes bay is notoriously difficult with tides and traffic, and I think as the nationals is a longer event anyway, it would be easier to add the extra days.

Bob replied:

Good comments guys -keep them coming
Bob

Bob replied:

Hi George
Thanks for your comments - some interesting ideas here. We could call on your services at the two day TT events if you want to give it a try.
Cheers
Bob
PS I feel fairly strongly that if we organise a "Fun Sailing" event at Swanage or linked to the Nationals at Whitstable (which is currently "Top of the Pops"), it should not be a training event. Everything we organise is racing oriented apart from the training course and the fun sailing at the Nationals when we do it. The fun sailing should be our opportunity to cruise with the non racers / families and generally have a good time in our boats. More than half of the owners of Dart 15s (in my experience) do this sort of thing but we only do it as a group once a year.

Bob replied:

A further though.
The biggest need for "Go Faster" Training is actually at Club level. Most of the improvers do not travel so the best place for the training and coaching is actually at Club level. I have been trying to do this at Grafham, but only with limited success as you see from the chat page comments.
It needs a concerted effort from all the better sailors to bring on those at the rear with tips and encouragement.
Cheers
Bob

Tim replied:

The fun events could stay as fun events, however it would be obvious by that time who were the slower boats, so if they were to leave the beach first, and the more experienced boats second, then perhaps some tips could be passed on as they pass, this would also allow the more experienced boats to get a look at some learners rigging from behind as well as from the front.

George Stephen replied:

Bob has challenged me to have a go at some training sessions at next year's 2 day TT events. I will give this a go, assuming that I am well enough to turn up. As this latter cannot be guaranteed (health reasons), not until the last couple of days before the event, there will be some difficulty over "advertising" - can Bob consider how we might handle this.

I will be aim sessions at those who want to improve so they don't get totally left behind by the top fifteen(s). There will be a shore-based session, and if we can fit it in a little "on the water". I could use some help in the form of better sailors, to endorse (or vary!) whatever I say/demonstrate, and watch and provide comments on what seemed to go well (to build on) and what didn't (to be improved).

As regards my suggestion of building some training into the proposed fun sailing, Tim has picked up exactly what I had in mind, especially on a trip from say Whitstable to Thorpe Bay and back - each leg being from about 14 to 20 miles depending on wind direction/speed and tide. The track crosses shipping lanes used by some of the larger container vessels (remember seeing the container vessel and cruise liner that collided off Margate some years ago? - don't let this put anyone off - their course is predictable and there's square miles of water on which to keep out of their way, and I've crossed bow waves within 100 metres of sterns). So in my humble view it will be appropriate to keep the fleet in close grouping, possibly groups if there are enough support/rescue boats and radios for most of the trip, rather than the supposedly slower boats starting first and being overtaken by the faster, not at least until the end of leg is close.

What better opportunity for the faster helms/crews to do some coaching on the way over, a bit of re-rigging/batten tensioning if appropriate at the stop-over, and some more advice on the way back? After all, it will be in their interest to get the convoy going at a speed which they find "comfortable". And the slower boats should be able to see the difference in their performance. Those who don't want to participate can do just that, but I suspect (and clearly hope) they might find on the water that they change their mind.

I recall my own learning curve, and wish it had been faster (and further!). So I'm always prepared to say what helped me.

Again, I can't promise to be at the fun sailing, not until the last minute.....

George

Pat Moore replied:

Mark,
I posted the original notice that George refers to and I agree totally that it is repetitive practice and persistance that generates a competence in any walk of life. The key to efficient practice though is to practice only those things that are beneficial to developing the skills that you need, otherwise you can delude yourself in believing that what you are spending time on is generating real benefits. It is in this area that established club menbers can help as the disappointment for a beginner sets in when, despite time on the water, you realise that you are no further on with your development because you have been practising what is comfortable as opposed to what is necessary. The value of every hour I now spend on the water is enhanced enormously because the Pro's at Gurnard have taken the time individually to sail with me and give me specific goals to work on. The "Improvers Weekend" supplied a similar stimulus through the various "shore based" sessions that supplemented the "on the water" sessions. I came away with a checklist of specific activities to work on when on the water. For many beginners we "don't know what we don't know" and therefore may never ask the key questions that unlock real progress. This is why what George proposes pays big dividends for those beginners (or otherwise) prepared to participate - it delivers a framework within which people can meaningfully plan their own development and focus their time on what is important. Learning is a mixture of practice, theory and reflection - practice without the later two aspects soon leads to headaches. Theory and reflection without practice only leads to short term academic interest and, as you rightly point out, a (short) lifetime at the back of the fleet.

Bob replied:

Good point
Cheers
Bob