Dart 15 Forums

AndrewHannah wrote:

At Thorpe Bay Yacht Club in Southend, we have a gentlemen's agreement to decide which mode we are going to race with. At the moment, it is una-rig, with only one boat sailing two-up with two sails. We are all happy to race on the same PY number. Even though the handicap system (882/916) works well, we still prefer to have one-design racing in a single mode.

Some of my fellow sailors have expressed a wish to try Sport mode for the next series. I don't mind, provided we all agree to do the same, excluding the two-up boat. But I am wondering what other clubs do. This is why I am making this post.

Do other fleets interchange the two modes? Do individual sailors chop and change their modes? I would especially like to hear from fleets that are predominately una-rig.

I accept some clubs race exclusively in one format or the other, eg Gurnard and Instow who both race Sport mode. What happens if someone there, wants to race with their child, ie two-up? Would this duo be allowed to race with a different PY number from the rest? Also, would someone else be allowed to race una-rig at Gurnard or Instow? Is the mode compulsory, or is it by gentlemen's agreement, as at Thorpe Bay?

In fact, I would like all fleets to comment on the switching of modes, both individually and clubwise.

Andrew Hannah,

Sprint 15 class capt, TBYC.

Erling replied:

At Shanklin we sail all point's races Una-Rig and this is about 70% of all races. For Cup races we race on handicap
with about a third sailing Sport, this seems to keep everyone happy as most of the racing is close boat on boat but with chance to sail Sport mode every couple of weeks.

Carl from Gurnard replied:

At Gurnard we never use handicapping for the Sprint 15 Fleet, what ever format people wish to sail, first over the line wins. This is easy for a Sport fleet as any alternative mode is (technically) slower. We occasionally go Jib-less in strong winds but helms are free to furl and un-furl as they see fit. The only times that we ever go two-up is with guests or if its really rough when sometimes we double-up with two helms on one boat. The only issue then is whose boat is used and who steers.

Martin Searle replied:

At Seasalter we allow anyone to choose what mode they sail with. This is because we race handicap mostly (two fleets: Fast and Slow) except for one series which is done on a class basis for cats.

This I quite like since I can change between modes without problem and if I fancy a F4 in Sport mode I choose that and in a F6 I'll go all una-rig. I also consult with my fellow sprint 15'ers and check what they are sailing but in the end I make my own decision. I prefer the Sport mode more fun.

It means we rely on the handicaps sort of working out but in general we find the 15 fleet is VERY competitive against the Dart 18's. But it all depends on the relative CSF of the competitors!

Martin S.
Seasalter Sailing Club or SSC (yes another one with that abbreviation)

George Stephen replied:

has the same PY regardless of whether single handed or 2up.
But unless the 2up crew is light, they'll probably not be competitive against singlehanded sportsters except in stronger winds.....

If Sprint15s are sailed in a wider handicap class, then the odd boat sailing standard/sport should surely be rated on its PY rating.

If a club operates a Class Start and Race for Sprint 15 Sport then an odd Standard boat or few would either have to race in whatever handicap race that the club ran, or enter with the Sport Class and bear the resulting disadvantage.

Your enthusiasm for creating a big group of sailors all electing to sail in the same handicap class is the right way to go - Kevin Parvin's article on page 27 of the November 05 Newsprint tells you why - you all sail on more or less an even footing and this will sharpen your sailing.

But as someone who enjoys sailing both standard and sport (with a preference for sport that has suffered in the last 4.5 years due to shoulder problems), I think your co-members idea of sailing standard for a series and then sport for another series is entirely the right thing to do.

As my shoulder is showing signs of recovery at last, my intention is to try sailing sport in QM's Frostbite Series (Jan/Feb), and Gordon may well join me. Depending on the shoulder, my preference is for continuing in sport mode until the sport nationals in the Club Sunday Series, sail standard in the Wednesday Evening Series, to keep both skills going, and decide when to sail Sinday Series standard after the Sport Nationals but early enough before the Standard Nationals. Whether Gordon then chooses to mix or match will be one of those things - we have sailed different modes in the past.

Your Club would have to be tolerant of running a class start for a mixed handicap class - the Race Office Team would have to time each boat and adjust for handicaps as opposed to just finishing order - but this does happen at Queen Mary with a separate start/race for "lasers" - ie Lasers, Laser Radials and Laser 4.7s - as an RO I time them all....

When it comes to "voting", the majority will always win. If there just a few more std sailors than sportsters at Thorpe bay, then the sportsters could be permanently unhappy (and vice versa). You would best be advised to
agree to race std/sport in rough proportion to the numbers - eg if they are 55:45 then sail half std and half sport. But DON'T mix'n'match during a Club Series if you want the Club Race Management Team on your side, as there will be repeated scope for error because someone on the chain from identifying boats on the water through timed results to handicap times will be unaware....

Hope this helps

George

Steve Willis replied:

Just to add to what Martin Searle has said our aim at Seasalter is to let everyone sail what and how they want according to the conditions (but only one class of boat in any series). The RO credo being all those sailing are there to enjoy themselves so let them decide how they want to do it.
To that end we split races into 2 fleets (950 PY). So all our Sprint 15s race with Dart 18, 505, Hurricane etc. Because of this our ROs always record individual times,laps and finish(except in pursuit races where position on the water at end time is all that is needed)and position is based on handicap. If you go out solo with a jib rigged on the forestay you get 882 PY whether you use the jib or not.

Some people have used both modes in the same series and I have to keep on eye on that when doing results (using the race specific rating facility in Sailwave)but again I see little advantage gained.

In fact it is the heavier helms that tend to use Sport mode as they can handle the boat better with the extra sail area and I suspect that this makes it fairer overall when you look at light wind performance of light helms.
Our Sprint 15 helms range in weight from about 8 stone to 15 stone but skill appears to predominate in most conditions with Sport mode not having a great bearing on results over the last few years.

I am not particularly convinced about 916 PY for a 15 with two up - it appears that this will only really reflect things correctly if the combined weight is less then 15-16 stone - all junior crew of 1-5 stone welcome!!!!
All our sailing is on the sea and that might have some bearing.

One interesting variation is that one of our Dart18s has a Gennaker and it seems the advantage gained on a run is lost in the time taken to recover and stow it each lap. I give them the same handicap as the other 18s and that boat/crew seem to do better without it and I think they spend more time with it rigged in the field playing with ropes than with it up on the water. A photo of them at speed on 6084 without the Gennaker is in the racing action page of pictures on our web site www.seasaltersailing.org.uk along with a number of our Sprint 15s in both modes.

Bottom line for us is that I could not define Sport mode or not for our races as it would either put off or not permit people to sail in some events. Anyway I have enough trouble with sorting out the slow handicap fleet with PYs ranging from 973 to 1386 all going together!

Gordon replied:

George, I've followed the thread, and I'm with you on switching to Sport for the next QM series.
I need to sharpen up following all the stick I got from Mr Carter at last years Sport Nationals. So let's give it a go.

Chsrles replied:

Andrew

At Halifax we almost exclusively sail Una rig, but that's mainly because it's too tiring getting out on the wire & then back in after 60 seconds.

I like your idea of electing which mode the fleet sails, I'll suggest it to the Hx Fleet & see if they want to try it for a series.

George Stephen replied:

I understand why you mostly sail standard at Halifax due to the short length of each beat! But if you do all give Sport mode a try, the tacking practice will get you close to the sort of standard that the best sailors at Gurnard exhibit - due to their short tacking up the shore to keep out of the worst of the tide in lighter wind conditons.

Please don't get too much practice before going to Instow!

George

Bob replied:

At Grafham all races are timed and corrected times are calculated so people can sail in which ever mode they want. As it is generally more fun to be in the same mode as the majority much of the time people sail in standard mode. For some weeks befor the Sport Mode National Championships a few of us switch over to sailing Sport mode to get a bit of practice in. This has generally been George & me with occasional showings from Mark Aldridge.
Time will tell who we will get Sporting next season. Hopefully Steve Sawford will practice now that he has joined Grafham. I also thought Keith Ball might give it a go (but he seems to have been in the dog house at home lately and has seldom sailed since his superb performance at Thorpe Bay last year).
Regards
Bob

AndrewHannah replied:

Thank you everybody for being so forthcoming. It is much as I expected, with different practices in every fleet.

Some attach little importance to one-design racing, by allowing individual sailors to choose their mode. A good example is Seasalter. Meanwhile, others are more prescriptive, notably Gurnard. But there seems to be very little switching en-masse fleet by fleet. Perhaps this will be unique to Thorpe Bay.

Many of us have never trapeezed. I am now waiting for the first person to try it, without having put his harness on first!

Andrew Hannah, TBYC.

Steve Willis replied:

Good luck Andrew,
I have spent many a happy hour hanging from the wire whilst my wife gracefully guides our Dart 18. However one lesson I learnt the hard way:
Having trapezed for several years with a harness we got with the 18 I decided to buy a new one at the dinghy show that fitted better.
In the following three months I became detached 3 times with the hook falling out whilst under tension. The first time I hung onto the jib sheet and nearly wiped my wife over the stern as well but as we were racing she carried on, muttering at me, while I dragged myself hand over hand back on over the rudder. The following two times I thought better of it and let go.
The key thing is that I trapeze nearly flat (nearly 60-90 degrees to the mast) as we are light weights and the hook on the harness was more clearly set for trapezing higher up.
A quick change to the angle of the hook in the vice cured the problems and, touch wood, in the last 18 months I have managed to stay aboard.
My excursions won us the 'Legends' trophy for stupidity in the face of excellence that year - so check your harness out on the beach first (maybe with a mattress under you!!!!!!).