Dart 15 Forums

Charles wrote:

Since updating the rules something has been nagging at the back of my mind & I've just realised what it is.

Bob said to me at some point that Compasses are out of class, so I've just done a search on the Rules as agreed at Pwllheli & the only instance of the word compass is to say that compass bearings will not be shown on starts.

Personally I've never used a compass, so don't know how much, if any advantage I'd gain, but unless the "no compass" rule is hidden elsewhere I don't think we have a rule to exclude compasses.

Thoughts?

Bob replied:

Yes - well spotted but compasses are definitely out of class. I guess it is coved by the 15 boat rule (if in any doubt about a feature your boat must be the same as any other 15 boats). One design boat rules apply to any additional equipment - as I understand it you do not have to list all the items that you cannot add.
Regards
Bob
PS we did not list outboard motors either!
PPS I just knew you like this rules thing.
PPPS Are you coming to Draycote on 14 Jan?

nick thorpe-beeston replied:

I dont use a tactical compass would not know how to use one but I always carry a compass on the boat or on my person . ( small button hole type compass) this was since we had a incident at the club when the sea mist rolled in very fast the race was abandonrd and all boats recalled but we lost a topper, only for about half an hour may be less granted but it was not funny for the person on the topper.
Could any rule be reconfigured to alow a compass for safty purposes, Although I doubt any one would protest me inany event.

Bob replied:

Hi Nick,
Hand held compasses are OK. It is only the type that are fixed to the boat and that you can steer to (like on a Yacht) that are not allowed. The rationale is as follows:
1) you gain a tactical advantage buy getting help to determine when to tack on a windshift
2) you may be able to find the windwark mark more easily
3) they are moderately expensive
so it would be an unfair advantage if some sailors had them and not others.
Regards
Bob

Martin Searle replied:

I guess if you put a handheld GPS unit in say your pocket that would be OK too but what about strapping it to your mast?

I've not got one but my brother (who doesn't sail) has one and it tells him all sorts of 'useful' information ie speed, route track, top speed, distance travelled that sort of thing in addition to the basic compass function. He uses it for walking. Might give some interesting information which could be used for strategic decision making.

I can see it now 'GPS bore' in the club bar, "oh I was travelling at 10 metres per second over 3 miles today ...." .

Martin S.

nick replied:

you are right, the windsurfers have a piece of kit called a navman which is a portable waterproof gps ??120 and they are very boring about how fast they go
I personally think they infringe the rules as they are comunication devices ( they comunicate with satilites)

Steve Willis replied:

In doing risk assessments for updating our club emergency plan and after discussion with the Coastguard I have actively been encouraging all our members to carry a hand held compass (preferably attached to their buoyancy aid). We too have had several instances where a very fast fog or mist cover has come down over the sea and the has wind dropped or changed significantly and people need to know which direction is home.

You might not think it worthwhile on a lake but just consider how much better it would be for most boats to get back to base ( or be heading there) unassisted and not have them all scattered around the shores to find and count back in.

Tactical compasses and GPS are another matter and in my view should be mentioned in class rules (to say whether they are allowed or not allowed) as now units are becoming much more affordable and accurate even at quite acute hull angles.

As mentioned I think they could detract from the ethos of one design paramount to the class. (Much as I would like one for the very reason that they could help significantly in getting changes in tack more quickly as unfortunately I am not one of those who can feel the force!).

AndrewHannah replied:

Please may I be allowed to add something here.

In the Royal Burnham One Design class at Burnham-on-Crouch, echo sounders to guage depth are outlawed. This does not mean to say that owners are forbidden to guage the depth. Far from it.

But instead of using electronic sounders to measure the depth, they use lead and line. The use of which, is a minor skill in itself. It is a perfectly seamanlike thing to do, whilst at the same time eschewing gadgetry.

It is equally seamanlike to carry a compass, but not an electric device to procure a racing advantage. Likewise GPS.

Andrew.

Bob replied:

Hi Martin,
Beats me - looks like one for the rules committee.
My personal view would be it is OK if the GPS is on the helmsman but not if it is on the boat. I won't worry about it too much though because for the sort of racing we do (round the cans on small courses) it would be a distraction that is likely to make the boat go slower not faster. I would recommend that the helm keeps concentrating on the tell tails to go faster.
Happy New Year
Bob

Jonathan replied:

The class rules are now on the website - see the "Rules" link in the main menu.

Many thanks to Charles for pulling together all the changes made at AGM's over the years and getting us up-to-date.

Jonathan

Bob replied:

Just goes to show you how responsive we are to our members requests. How many classes can compete with us?

Bob replied:

It was a response to a request by Nick on 3 January in message 3760, for the record. So that is a 5 day turn around time. Not bad!

Charles replied:

...whether it be nobler for gentlemen (& ladies) to know when they are infringing the spirit of our rules & thus acept the slings & arrows of outraged Sprinters...

I'm quite glad I started this thread, it's more interesting than I expected !

It certainly has thrown up some interesting points of view & differing experiences. As a puddle sailor it's mostly accademic to me, though we often sail in cloud at Halifax, so perhaps a GPS to tell me how far off one of those scaffolding jetties I am might not be a bad thing!!

It does seem to me that these 2 items, as they have become so common place, are probably worthy of a mention in our rules, especially as the wrist watch style of GPS is becoming more common.

Given both are of obvious safety value a definition of what is & is not acceptable use would need careful wording.

Since the 3 piers is now in our events calendar surely a GPS would not put anyone out of class for safety reasons, but its use to gain an advantage might. OK this is a bit of a different race from the usual TTs. On the safety side in a race like that (& I've never done it so don't know) I'd have thought handheld VHF (& mobile phones) would be recommended, but wouldn't put anyone out of class as there's no competitive advantage (only disadvantage with weight).

Yes Bob, I obviously love this rules thing, or is it just that I'm terminally pedantic??

Unfortunately I probably won't be at Draycote, but expect to be at Grafham in March.

Bob replied:

Hi Charles,
What not coming to Draycote - are you a man or mouse?

On the rules thing - you know what to do if you want a change. Make a proposal & get a seconder in time for distribution to the membership at least 21 days before the AGM. This essentially means it has to be in the next edition of NewSprint - likely to be in the May timeframe I think.
Regards
Bob

Martin Searle replied:

Hi Bob,

If I were to acquire one then yes I'd just use it to record my track and garner details like distance, speed that sort of thing since its the sort of info most of us would like to know but can only approximate. All reviewed apres race of course, just another button too push at the start seq.

In the long distance races they would be useful for navigation esp. in adverse conditions, e.g the Whitstable Forts race which goes out of sight of land or our very own Fowley Island Open which goes down the Swale into a land where everything looks very similar.

But yes in a normal round the cans race one is just trying to go faster than everyone else and beat those Dart 18 or 505 sailors. So yep it would be case of switch on, set it to right mode, shove in pocket and forget about. Unless of course it was a total drifter and it could also be used to play games on!

Martin Searle
Seasalter Sailing Club