Dart 15 Forums

OK so at Queen Mary the first place was decided by 1 of the 3 boats on 5 points having a first place.

The second and third tie was not broken by race count back and, reading the report, relied on aggregate time difference.

So I presume this is part of the Olympic Scoring System referred to in the Class Rules.

Is this the aggregate elapsed race time of each boat in all races sailed - if so what if there are discards, do the times for discarded races get included?

I have tried Google and Firefox searches for this scoring system but cannot locate it, can anyone point me to the system rules.

Sorry this one is new to me and I need to get it right (as I will probably have to do the scoring for the Seasalter TT !!!!!!! -

No, points will not be deducted for that event's scores for the best answer given now!

Steve (756)

Steve,

For full chapter and verse we need Bob Carter's comments, but as far as I know the reasons for this "odd" scoring in the WINTER Traveller Series goes as follows:

Each Winter Event consists of 2 races (possibly only 1 due to abandonment) held on one day, with NO DISCARDS. The events are not "Championships", so the Class Rules do not have to apply.
If we used the usual tie-resolving basis (as per Racing Rules) then the result of a tie would ultimately be settled on the basis of the results in the 2nd and last race.
The Racing Rules approach is set up in the expectation that a series would usually involve several races, when using the last race result may well be "fair". But when there are just 2 races the decision to use just the last race result might well seem unfair and arbitrary.
So Bob in his wisdom dreamt up the "aggregate handicap time" rule for ultimately settling ties; the quickest aggregate boat on handicap time wins any tie remaining to be settled under RSS A.8. This variation from RRS is covered in the Sailing Instructions for each Winter Event (and should also be mentioned in the NoRs). You'll be unlikely to find it anywhere else.
When there are just 2 races with no discards I think it is the fairest way of settling ties. It is not very difficult to work out manually for the few boats that are involved in ties. Agreed that Race Officers may find it a bit annoying timing boats when there are only boats of one class sailing (as often occurs in our Winter Series)......

This system has NOT (to my knowledge) applied to the Summer Traveller Series - the usual Racing Rules for settling ties has always applied. I can't see Bob changing this for 2007, but .......

Hope this helps

Thanks George

I understand. I have been somewhat uneasy with the count back from last race in some of our club series as well.

We have about 20 series each year and whilst some occur over one or two weekends most take several months and ties generally end up being broken because one or other of those tied did not sail the last race.

Whilst the RRS methods provide an incentive for the pot hunters to make the last race not everyone can get out on the water as often as they like.

I will await Bob's return and talk to him in more detail about his methodology.

Food for thought anyway.

Regards

Steve

Steve Willis wrote:Thanks George

I understand. I have been somewhat uneasy with the count back from last race in some of our club series as well.

We have about 20 series each year and whilst some occur over one or two weekends most take several months and ties generally end up being broken because one or other of those tied did not sail the last race.

Whilst the RRS methods provide an incentive for the pot hunters to make the last race not everyone can get out on the water as often as they like.

<snipage>
Steve

Pot Hunter, who me? Besides it was a certain Mr Dutch that walked off with most of the silverware in the club, followed by Me.

It does seem unfair in count backs after tallying up firsts,seconds and thirds to decide results on the basis of the last race, or the next to last race etc especially if you have had a bad race towards the end of a series. But I can see that if you want to get clearly deliniated results ie no ties then you have to use something to split them up. (RRS A8.2)

On the subject of scoring of series longer than a regatta RRS A9 comes into play. There is one thing that everyone needs to be clear about is what is defined as the Starting Area! as well as to how many races would constitute a regatta and how many would constitute a series? e.g a 4 race weekend event would probably be a regatta but a 13 race event over a couple of months would be a series.

For example: I should be counted as having arrived at the starting area in a race series and then shock horror found I was sinking and sailed back to the beach, even if it was premeditated (ie I knew it had a leak).

Ok perhaps I'm a pot hunter in club races .

Martin S.

PS you can view the RRS online at www.isaf.org.

Now who mentioned any names Martin????

For our races I tend to take any event that takes place over one weekend to be a regatta and everything else is a series. But even then the difference between DNC and DNS can be unfair if people cannot sail every day of say the long Easter weekend - that's why I interspersed races from different series on each day (cuts down the double duty bonus or the double DNC penalty for a single day of not sailing). It's also why doing the duty rota takes a long time - trying to avoid the same duty team having more than one duty in any Series.

My view on the starting area is that someone signs on and goes on the water and is in a position to be able to get to the start line within 5 minutes of the start gun. Difficult when half our fleet is sometimes still ashore having tea at the 5 minute signal for the second race.

Another thing is to listen to what is being said ashore in the changing area before the race!!! Comments like "my boat will only stay afloat for 5 minutes but that will get me a DNS" go in the book!

I will talk to Bob about his ideas as it may have some merit for club sailing and would not take to much to work out as we only have a few ties in any year.

I won't be able to use that one this year either - both hulls of 756 are at Peter Barnard's now to have the large holes repaired. He has just finished Dean Abra's Wayfarer damage from the IOSSC race so Sunday was hull swop day.



Steve(756)

Steve,

I think Bob's "aggregate handicap time" works very well for our Winter Series Events, because the tricky calculation only has to be done occasionally for a few boats, for just 2 races. Working out aggregate handicap time for a lot of races, as per your Seasalter Series, would be tedious - you'd probably have to have recourse to ROs' paper records of times.......... I don't think that htere is any software available which would work this out for you. Further, I don't know how ties in the overall series results are settled. I think that the aggregate handicap time basis probably doesn't then apply - the usual RSS methods apply (I expect Bob to take me to task if I am wrong about this....).

I don't like A.8.2 much, even for longer series. I'd prefer to see it take the form of an extension of A.8.1: add in discards progressively, starting with the best for each boat, to arrive at a result.

As regards what constitutes "the starting area", there was a protest at Queen Mary that went to the RYA. The decision was that a boat was in the starting area if it was anywhere on the water, provided it was not still moored. At QM a boat can be on the water and still be well over a mile from the starting line, possibly even nearly 2 miles if it's on "the other side of the bund from the start line".

I wish you well in your efforts to avoid nearly always going Dutch or having Searly winners!

Martin, are you updating your 15 to a higher sail number?
If so it'll be another year of old vs new at Seasalter with Spark 191 joining this year. We must have the largest Spark fleet in the country.

Coloured sails to the fore this year! I hope to see mine and Steve's ahead of all the boring white ones.

Ben

Ben,

SSCBen wrote:Martin, are you updating your 15 to a higher sail number?
If so it'll be another year of old vs new at Seasalter with Spark 191 joining this year. We must have the largest Spark fleet in the country.

Coloured sails to the fore this year! I hope to see mine and Steve's ahead of all the boring white ones.

Ben

Its one of the bigger club fleets (about 17 isn't it?) but I don't know who's the current top dog or is that cat .

I think thats a we'll see, all a bit pie in the sky at the momment but I'm getting my present boat, 1331, ready to race. Having both coloured and non coloured sails I can choose the winning side at any time

In other words I've got a maintenace fest on at the momment:

I've got the new metalwork for my port rudder bolted on to my old blade that Chris kindly refurbished for me so I have replaced the one that was stolen now. Now just need to remove the old pin out of the starboard one without busting the casting and replace it with a smaller pin and we'll be ready to go! its difficult to grip with a pair of pliers or perhaps I'll just say to hell with it and get a new end casting for it with pin fitted since the casting is a bit worn too. Looks like way too many bits of boat are reaching their MTBF's.

Then there's the new mast heel wear plate I have to fit soon otherwise the old one will be completely worn away, Steve W. gave me some instructions on what to do.

Martin S.

Martin,

If you mean you are trying to replace the tiller pin on the end casting you can bring it over to my place and we can do it in the vice if you like.

The key thing is to pour boiling water over the casting - or dip the casting in boiling water for a few minutes as that helps soften the aluminium oxide corrosion. then let it dry and put some penetrating oil around the pin /casting to let it soak in for an hour.

Then slightly TIGHTEN the pin to break the join and then wind it out.

I had to do mine to change to short pins and they can be very tight to get started - too tight for pliers or mole grips - , hence the need to put the pin in the vice and gently work the tiller arm. I did that after putting it in boiling water again to heat it up gently (Don't use a blow torch).

Give me a call if you want to pop over - you could come Friday after work if you are going to the club in the evening as we are only a few miles away from there. If necessary you can leave it with me.

What do you mean the mast heel plate MIGHT wear away altogether! You have a hole right through it now.

Steve