2-up sailing

[Charles]

Elenya & I had a good time at Filey Regatta (btw she's a big girl at 8 yrs old now!).

I've found a thread which talks about 2 up & I agree the crew has to be light, I'm about 13st 7lbs & Elenya is about 4st, so weight to sail area we are not really loosing out just yet & might be competitive for a couple more years !

What I did find was that in the light winds & without adjusting the rig from my usual Una rig settings the boat pointed dreadfully (about 10 degrees below the other boats), though we were going faster, but not fast enough to hold on to that last race! Robin, don't feel guilty, she's happy with her tankard (now!!)!!

Ray suggested dropping the mast back as per Sport mode. Is this 1 or 2 holes lower on the shrouds?

As I don't race Sport what other things do I need to know?

Are there any major set up differences between Sport & 2-up?

In light winds we sit either side of the tramp as far forward as we can.

As the wind picks up Elenya comes up to windward & initially sits on the hull forward of the shroud, with me in my normal helming position just aft of the shroud.

As the wind picks up further & the leeward bow starts to bury I move aft, Elenya moves aft of the shroud & we then move our weight pretty much as you would sailing single handed.

Steve Hanby was at Filey & recommended 1 foot on & 1 under the toe straps for stability in pitchpole conditions, I think to try to stop slipping forwards in a pitchpole situation & in an attempt not to squish the crew. Good idea, as I don't think Elenya would appreciate being between me & the mast or shroud in a wipeout !!

Does anyone have any more suggestions?

Thanks

[Bob Carter]

Elenya & I had a good time at Filey Regatta (btw she's a big girl at 8 yrs old now!).

I've found a thread which talks about 2 up & I agree the crew has to be light, I'm about 13st 7lbs & Elenya is about 4st, so weight to sail area we are not really loosing out just yet & might be competitive for a couple more years ! SOUNDS LIKE AN IDEAL WEIGHT TO ME

What I did find was that in the light winds & without adjusting the rig from my usual Una rig settings the boat pointed dreadfully (about 10 degrees below the other boats), though we were going faster, but not fast enough to hold on to that last race! Robin, don't feel guilty, she's happy with her tankard (now!!)!! YES WHEN YOU USE THE JIB YOU CANNOT POINT QUITE AS HIGH - BUT IT IS NOT AS BAD AS 10 DEGREES AND YOU TRAVEL FASTER WHICH MEANS IT IS ABOUT NEUTRAL. IN LIGHT WINDS THE USUAL PROBLEM IS THAT YOU SHEET IN THE JIB TOO HARD WHICH CLOSES UP THE SLOT AND STALLS THE MAIN SAIL. TRY CRACKING OFF THE JIB SHEET AN INCH OR TWO AND THEN SAIL TO THE TELL TALES ON THE JIB. IN LIGHT WINDS IT IS ALSO WORTH TRYING SAILING WITH THE TRAVELLER IN THE CENTRE AND THE MAINSHEET NOT QUITE SO TIGHT SO THAT YOU ARE SAILING WITH A LITTLE TWIST IN THE MAINSAIL

Ray suggested dropping the mast back as per Sport mode. Is this 1 or 2 holes lower on the shrouds? NO I DO NOT AGREE (NOR DOES GEORGE). THE OPTIMUM MAST RAKE IS THE SAME FOR UNARIG, SPRINT AND 2-UP SAILING. FOR UNA-RIG IT IS AT THE POINT WHEN YOU CAN JUST ABOUT HEAVE IT TO BLOCK TO BLOCK (OR ALMOST) - SO IF YOU THEN DID THE RAY TRICK YOU WOULD BE SAILING BLOCK TO BLOCK AND HAVE A SLACK LEECH AND YOU WOULD BE SPILLING WIND. I WOULD NOT CHANGE THE RIG ANGLE BETWEEN FORMATS. THE IMPACT OF THE JIB IS COMPENSATED BY THE FORE AND AFT TRIM OF THE BOAT. POSITION THE WEIGHT SO THAT THE HELM IS NEUTRAL.

As I don't race Sport what other things do I need to know?

Are there any major set up differences between Sport & 2-up? THE BIG DIFFERENCE IS DOWNWIND. UNARIG BOATS GO STRAIGHT DOWNWIND. WHEN SAILING WITH THE JIB YOU MUST TACK DOWN WIND WITH A SERIES OF GYBES TO KEEP THE JIB PULLING. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING GOOSE WING (UNLESS TRYING TO KEEP OUT OF A STRONG TIDE). GET SET UP WITH THE JIB PULLING (BUT ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE). I FIND THE WIND WAND IS INVALUABLE FOR THIS IF IT HAS NOT BEEN BENT. SAIL ON A BROARD REACH SO THAT THE WIND INDICATOR FROM THE WIND WAND JUST TOUCHES THE BRIDLE WIRE. THEN SET THE JIB AND THE MAIN TO HAVE NICE SHAPES AND THE TELL TALES SET NICELY. THE MAIN SAIL SHOULD NOT BE TOO FAR OUT (SAY 2FT BETWEEN BLOCKS) THEN LEAVE THE SAILS ALONE (I LEAVE THEM BOTH CLEATED UNLESS IT IS HONKING). STEER TO THE JIB. KEEP IT ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE. YOU WILL FIND THAT YOU CAN BEAR OFF IN THE GUSTS. THE GOLDEN RULE IS "BEAR OFF ON THE GUSTS AND HEAD UP IN THE LULLS".

In light winds we sit either side of the tramp as far forward as we can. DOWNWIND YES BUT NOT UPWIND. POSITION YOURSELVES TO GET A NEUTRAL TILLER UPWIND. IF YOU SIT TOO FAR FORWARD UPWIND IT CAN BE BAD NEWS AS IT BRINGS THE CENTRE OF REACTION TOO FAR FORWARD AND MAKES THE TILLER HEAVY WHICH SLOWS YOU DOWN.

As the wind picks up Elenya comes up to windward & initially sits on the hull forward of the shroud, with me in my normal helming position just aft of the shroud.

As the wind picks up further & the leeward bow starts to bury I move aft, Elenya moves aft of the shroud & we then move our weight pretty much as you would sailing single handed.

Steve Hanby was at Filey & recommended 1 foot on & 1 under the toe straps for stability in pitchpole conditions, I think to try to stop slipping forwards in a pitchpole situation & in an attempt not to squish the crew. Good idea, as I don't think Elenya would appreciate being between me & the mast or shroud in a wipeout !! WHEN REACHING IN A BLOW THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE TO BOTH SITTING BEHIND THE SHROUD. YOU DO FEEL A BIT OF A CAD WHEN YOU SHUNT YOUR CREW INTO THE SHROUD.
STEVE WAS GOOD AT 2 UP - BUT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HIS ADVICE. WAS HE SAILING THAT NASTY RS200? I SEE HE DOES NOT DO VERY WELL IN THE RS200 FLEET AT ALL. HE NEEDS TO GET A GOOD BOAT AGAIN

Does anyone have any more suggestions?

SAILING WITH A JIB IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE ON THE REACHES. UPWIND IT IS PRETTY NEUTRAL (FASTER BUT NOT POINTING SO HIGH) AND THE RUNS ARE A DISADVANTAGE IN LIGHT WINDS BUT CAN BE GOOD AS THE WIND GETS STRONGER. ONCE YOU GET USED TO USING THE TELLTALES ON THE JIB TO STEER TO UP WIND, IT CAN BE GOOD IN LIGHT WINDS. YOU HAVE TO SAIL A LITTLE FREER TO KEEP THE MOMENTUM BUT THE JIB IS A HUGE WIND INDICATOR AND MORE ACCURATE THAN THE MAIN TELL TALES OR THE BURGEE.

Thanks

Hi Charles
I hear that you are frustrated that no one has replied to this. I have added my comments in the text above in capitals. I hope that it helps.
Regards
Bob
PS mine's a red wine!

[Ben]

hang on a minute why are we giving charles and elenya tips its not like they need it o dear they came second at filey!! thats not bad better than me and the old man i would say that he is fair and knows what he is doing

(sorry charles dont like seeing the back of your boat ha ha ha)

[Andrew Hannah]

Bob's tips on two-up sailing are very helpful.

At Thorpe Bay, we have plenty of Sprinters who are not only new to catamarans, but are also new to sailing. If it is a bit windy, they're unlikely to go out. So they sail two-up with a more experienced sailor. This works well because they become familiar with breezy conditions and quickly learn where to put their weight.

[Charles]

Bob

Thanks for the advice, I was goose winging down wind, as the only person I've ever seen tacking consistently & effectively down wind is Steve Hanby, so I'll practice that.

We were probably sat too far forward too (probably why we were pointing so badly), I'll practice thinking about the helm weight while on holiday... though I expect my crew will insist on trapeezing which might affect the balance a bit!!

I'll try using the wand & teltale too, instead of the burgee I normally tape on.

I'll have to see if I can borrow a decent jib from someone, as I've only got the original coloured one I bought with the boat.

Yes, Steve was in an RS, crewing I think. He was saying he's managed to work out how to make it go now & is doing better at Beaver. Ray was trying hard to get him to the Nationals.

Ben

Sorry about trying to go faster, it's just that I don't want Robin to feel bad again as he goes across the line to the sound of Ellie sobbing! And also I don't want her to be telling me I should have tacked when she told me to!!

Andrew

I'm hoping for a good breeze at the Nats, so perhaps some of your home entries will end up in the 2-up fleet.

[Jim Coleman]

Hi Bob,

I read the your reply with great interest as I have just embarked on two sail sailing (for the first time ever in any boat). And today I sailed like that in winds about 5 to 10 mph.
Upwind and on close/beam reaches I was able to get the boat going reasonably well with jib and main telltales flying but I had a problem downwind. I could not get the jib to contribute below a beam reach. The telltales were just drooping on both sides even though the main's were flying. I felt that the jib needed to go out further but couldn't make it do so as the jib sheets were as far out/in on each side as they could go. I was using the ropes etc as originally supplied and the rig tension was set a la Grafham water boats for unarig sailing, ie very loose. I thought I might do better if I shortened the strops that come from the jib clew. Is that correct? Or is there something I'm not doing?
It would also help with tacking and gybing if I knew the best sequences and when I should release and tighten jib sheets and mainsheet for these manoeuvres.

Cheers

Jim Coleman

[Bob Carter]

Hi Jim,
You should not sail below a beam ream reach downwind so that the jib collapses. It means, however, that you will be sailing completely different angles downwind to unarig boat but the same angles as a 2-up Dart 18. The jib sheet is plenty long enough, so it sounds like you are letting it out too far. In light winds the jib sheet is too heavy for the sail to go out under the strength of the wind - for this reason we changed the rules some time ago to allow lighter jib sheets. So you can take off the carbine hook and use a lighter shackle, use lighter strop ropes (eg. 3mm Dyeema or Spectra) and use a lighter jib steet 5 or 6mm and smaller blocks. This is less of an issue when sailing 2-up as you can get the crew to hold up/out the sheet to take the weight off the clew - just like you see Dart 18s do. When sailing a tight reach you can get all the telltales (jib & main) streaming but when you are running using a series of beam reaches I cannot recall ever trying to get the jib telltales to stream (others may?). It is more a matter of keeping the jib filled and pulling. When the whole sail starts to drop point up a tad to keep it pulling.

My techniques for manoevering are as follows (others are bound to do it different ways):
A) Gybing
1 Uncleat the jib (& let it flap briefly)
2 Turn and gybe the main sheet (generally by pulling it across on the mid span section of the mainsheet - but if windy catching the main sheet on the arm to break the energy and save the battens.
3 recleat the jib on the other side.
In strong winds never gybe from reach to reach but put in a short bit of a dead run and just pull the sail across without changing directions.

B) Tacking
1 Tack with the jib cleated to get a rapid turn
2 very quickly uncleat the jib after the boat has gone though the wind
3 cleat in on the new side

I would be interested if one or 2 of the good guys (like George Carter or Robin Leather) share their techniques, which may differ.

Cheers
Bob
PS Jim, I don't seem to have your entry for the Nationals. Are you coming??

[Jim Coleman]

Thanks Bob,

Your reply was very helpful.

Regretfully I won't be coming to the Nationals. Nowadays I need to be in Huntingdon most days.

By the way I'm really very pleased you convinced me to buy a Sprint 15. It is a great boat. And the options available to play with are real bonuses for me.

Cheers

Jim