Dart 15 Forums

Hi all

At Halifax SC we are now in the fortunate position of having a fleet start for Sprints during club racing, (in recent years no dominant fleet) so one mass start for everybody.

This is not good for Cats as you all know so my question is how do we go about setting it up, should we start first and hopefully get well out of the way before the monohulls, (one thing bothers me about that Molohulls hanging around the start like flys round a light bulb) or second start and have clear water at the start and do some buzzing of soap dishes with the swift and silent approach of a Sprint which I realy enjoy when you fly a hull past them and steal the wind Its then a hunting Cat

2nd question, what is the starting procedure I must admit to being a bit short of knowledge on this subject, and our committee is divided on the procedure

we must get this done before the start of the season which is the end of March so all advice will be gratefully recieved.

Hi Steve,

Racing Rules of Sailing Rule 26 finishes:

"The warning signal for each successive class shall be made with or after the starting signal of the preceeding class".

Thus you do 5 mins- warning, 4 mins- preparatory, 1 min and then start for the first class. You then have the choice of hoisting the warning flag for the second class (you need different warning flags) at the same time as the start signal or wait for say a minute.

One thing to bear in mind is how many things the RO is doing at the time of the start. It is all OK if it is a clean start but if one or more boats are over the line and need a recall flag and sound signals then it can all get very confusing. He might need a second stop watch as well - we use a Radio Spares clock/timer that counts down from 5 minutes (or whatever you set it for) and it then beeps and starts to count up giving elapsed time - which we use rather than 'real time' for recording race time as it saves all the conversion.

I am looking at the same arrangement for SSC to get the cats clear of the dinghies sitting on the line and I am inclined to have approximately a 1 minute gap - but not tie the second start to the first in any way. That way if something untoward happens at the first start the RO can sort that out before making the warning signal for the second class.

I will be interested to see other replies so thanks for raising the subject.

In my view the order of starts is swings and roundabouts. Unlike you pond dwellers, with excellent waters and flexibility of time, you know we have a short tide time and my inclination is to get the slowest boats away first. This means the cats will not be waiting for a long period before the second race. To me the downside is that the first mark is likely to be congested if the cats catch up.

One thing we have done for a couple of years is have slightly different courses for the cats and dinghies to reflect sailing angles and speed - to help everyone get the best course for their type of boat and to enable finishes to be near the same time - NB we have had to give each fleet its own shorten course flag as well.

However our dinghy captain has asked that we set the same course in 2009 but maybe one or two less laps (in that way the dinghy handicap times can be compared with the cats over the same number of laps - as long as the ROs record the lap time for each boat each lap (as I ask them to do anyway in case we have to abandon part way through a race). This will help compare improvements in our race scores for our 'ladders'.

One thing I am intending to do is require all boats not in the next start to keep clear of the start line (say by 100 - 200 metres minimum, depending on wind conditions).

Let's see how this develops.

Happy Christmas and New Year

Steve

Hi Steve,

At Queen Mary we have 3 starts on Sundays, each of which is a “composite start” which covers 2 or more classes. The order used, rightly or wrongly, is :

1 Lasers (Lasers, Radials and 4.7s all together, constituting 3 classes and sailing a modified version of Olympic Triangle/Sausages)
2 Slow and Fast Handicap (anything else other than assymetrics which sail windward/leeward courses on Start3, with the Slow Handicap class sailing one less lap than displayed, maybe sailing modified OT/Ss as per Lasers, maybe some other course)
3 Assymetric classes (RS400s, RS700s, Others, all sailing a windward/leeward course)

Courses and the number of laps to be sailed are displayed for each start. ROs are supposed to set number of laps so that races last c45 minutes (but often get this wrong....)

We use the RRS standard Start sequence of consecutive “5,4,1,go”s, ie so the Class Flag for the 2nd and 3rd starts is raised at the same time the Class Flags for the 1st and 2nd starts, respectively, are removed. We vary RRS29.2 so that any starts (other than the last, for which RRS29.2 still applies) that are subject to General Recall restart on a further 5,4,1,go at the end of the ongoing sequence of starts (in practice, Lasers seem to start last quite often!!!)

The 3 by 5 minute sequences are quite protracted, and can result in Lasers (or possibly Fast Handicap boats) returning around the leeward mark just upwind of the start line as a later start takes place, which can be bloody awkward for the RO team trying to note sail numbers of 1st lappers and get the later start away..... (If you have a line which boats cross each lap, this will be even worse for both competitors and RO team as early starters come through the line as the later start is lining up.....) So whichever order you choose for your starts, try to ensure that you don't have this problem – even by making your SIs have a different sequence than 5,4,1,go, especially for your 2nd start – I think that 6,3,1,go1/3,1,go2 might be considered a better option)!

Try also to avoid a later faster start being likely to reach the windward mark at the same time as earlier slower starters, but remember that whatever you do you'll always find you clash at some mark or other.

At QMSC, boats not racing are required to keep clear of those racing, but there are no penalties! I can remember getting totally screwed up on my start by inconsiderate Fast Assymetrics on or around the line for a few weeks; there were frank exchanges both on the water and after racing which improved the situation dramatically, but there are still relapses and I suspect that since I haven't been able to sail at QMSC for over 5 months things may have deteriorated!).

Our Summer Wednesday Evening Series has one average time per lap race over about 1 hour, all boats starting together – it's not good in a cat at the start with 30+ (even 50+!!) dinghies (inc a few keelboats – RS K6s point horribly high in competent hands). But note that I strongly favour average time per lap races for handicap classes as it usually means less hanging around between races.

If you want any help on SIs for varying RRS, or possibly for running average time per lap races, let me know and I'll tryto find some samples/advice to email to you. But a new set of RRS is due for 2009-12 – I haven't tried to check what is available - and may have some variations that will affect anything I can offer.

George,

There is a Powerpoint presentation on the RYA website showing the changes to the Rules. If you do not have Office 2007 you will need to download the latest Powerpoint viewer to see it properly.

The main change is that the standard rules change the 2 boat length circle round a mark to 3 boat lengths - but it allows this to be changed in SIs (the change is due to higher boat speeds). Some other clarifications and explanations (plus we no longer have buoyancy aids but 'personal flotation devices').

Steve

Steve,

I use Open Office, which can be downloaded for free. It seems to cope with most other "Office-type Suites", but I guess some of the very rarely used functions/features might not work (Microsoft Office 97 files seem totally ok with Open Office 3.0.0, and I haven't had problems with the simple files I've worked on from later Microsoft Office versions).

I've looked through the RYA Powerpoint presentation, and found that the RRS changes also require Class Rules to be checked and changed if necessary:
"From 1 January 2011, when a class rule changes a racing rule when allowed to do so, (rules 42,49,50,51,52,53 and 54) the changes must, like changes to sailing instructions, refer specifically to the rule and state the change. So classes have two years to address this"
An obvious need for change for Sprint 15 will be in that part of the Sprint 15 Sport Class Rules that allows the use of a trapeze. No doubt there others... but this seems just a matter of going through the class rules, draft changes to the wording to comply, and get it all agreed at a Sprint15 AGM (or EGM) (plus the consent of Bryher Mouldings?) before 1/1/11. Another job for Charles?

There's also a new rule that Sailing Instructions can't change class rules without class association consent :
"The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class association for the change is displayed on the official notice board."
Great for Classes? I think this could be difficult for clubs which run open events - the problems for traveller events is a nuisance in comparison.

Hi George,

Yes I saw the bit about class rules and agree Open meetings will need much more attention in setting NORs and SIs. We have one open meeting a year and I am likely to change that to an invitation race, but that does not get over the problem.

I was not that impressed with the explanations of the rules with the diagrams - not clear enough (simple enough) for beginners. I am going to hold a rules refresher briefing before we restart sailing and it looks like I will have to write my own texts.

Re Open Office - yes I know a few people who are using it and are happy with it. Because I work from home and most of my clients use MS I stick to that as I cannot afford any incompatiblity, as most of it is urgent. Luckily as a member of the Institution of Engineering and Technology I can get significant discounts on software through Citnexus.

As an aside Martin Searle is now doing excellent work on the SSC website using the technologies founded on the Sprint 15 site. He set up our original site several years ago and is now revamping it on a new domain so we can use it much more flexibly.

Steve

George

Thanks for offering my services to review the rules!

At HxSC I think we will have a separate start but continue to score as one fleet, a bit odd I know. We already calculate on average lap times.

I think 1 min between sequences is a good idea, but if we are timing all for the same race it will have to be exactly 1 minute.

As we'd only have 2 starts 5 min sequences would generally be OK, fastest lap I've ever done is 6 minutes.

General recalls would go to the back of the queue & have to start their sequence exactly 1 minute after the previous start.

This seems do-able given our OOD rarely has an assistant.

I prefer the first start option for cats so we & monos are well split up by the time we lap them, or are all drifting if they pass us! Six minutes apart for starts should result in little congestion on the line.

That presentation is 121 pages... good job I checked before trying to print.

Can't be much of a summary !

I'll read it later...

Hi Guys,
On a small lake like yours 3 minutes between starts is fine. If you want a minute between successive starts then that would make it 4 minutes.

Thus the timing would be:

-3 mins Class flag up & 1 hoot
-2 mins 'P' flag up & 1 hoot
-1 mins P flag down & 1 hoot
0 mins START 1 - class flag down & 1 hoot.
+1min next class flag & 1 hoot
etc.

It would be better if the Sprint 15s start 1st so that there is minimum interference between the 2 starts. It is also smart for general recalls to go to the back of the sequence.
Cheers
Bob
PS At Grafham we do 5 starts at 3 minute intervals and do not have the extra minute between successive starts. To do it this way you just need to raise the second class flag as you drop the first one.

Bob,

Noting the general recall falls to be last start, do you have any specific instructions (or noted problems) with individual recall boats and the next fleet awaiting start?

Steve

Steve Willis wrote:Bob,

Noting the general recall falls to be last start, do you have any specific instructions (or noted problems) with individual recall boats and the next fleet awaiting start?

Steve

Hi Steve,
Our Sailing Instructions have the words like the following (I've modified them to remove the Grafham bucket system, which we use instead of flags):

13 Recalls
13.1 Individual recalls will be signalled by the hoisting of the 'X' flag plus one sound signal. (as RRS 29.1)

13.2 A General Recall will be signalled by the hoisting of the first substitute plus two sound signals. (As RRS 29.2)

13.3 A recalled start shall start 3 minutes after the last scheduled start of that race – this modifies RRS 29.2.

Really 13.1 & 13.2 are unnecessary if you use the standard flags. Only 13.3 is required.

It works quite well as it punishes the delinquent fleet by making them start last and it gives them more time to return. It also means that the subsequent start is not affected by the general recall and it means you do not need the 1 minute extra time between starts. This is a big deal when you have 5 starts spanning 12 minutes plus any restarts due to general recalls.
Cheers
Bob

At Thorpe Bay, the first group to start is the multihulls (including Sprints). The starting sequence is 3-2-1-off! The "off" is the warning signal for the next group. We are very similar to Grafham.

Our instructions are all on-line. You can check these out by going to the association clubs link....Thorpe Bay YC.....committee boat. There is another link for shore box starts.

Courses are displayed on C/B thus: "front" for cats, stern for the rest. Hopefully, this means we get a square course! We have the option of using the fixed racing marks or inflatables.

You will see TBYC instructions have been devised and written to be helpful to someone new. Technical words like "display and remove", have been avoided! There is plenty of other helpful information for anyone taking a turn at race officer.

We moved to 5,4,1,go shortly after it was intorduced as the IYRU standard. Personally I think this is good, as it is one less difference to contend with when travelling, especially for new boys/girls. Obvoiusly this is untrue when at Grafham.

My main reason for suggesting a gap between start & warning of the next sequence is that as the OoD is usually on his/her own they have to watch the time, lower a flag, blow a horn & watch the line all at once, which is just about do-able if you plan it out beforehand & assume that we are using our flags on canes system, which avoids hoisting on ropes and we always have land-based starts. It's quite possible to add the extra flag in to this:-

hold flag to raise horizontal in watch hand
hold flag to drop vertically in other hand
have hooter button on floor to operate with foot
stand on starting line transit
watch time
at T-0 blow hooter, twists both wrists through 90 degrees, watch line

This assumes that you are not also having to hold on to something so as not to be blown away!

As you know it's easy to mess up starts & when trying to do all those things at once even easier... we need more women OoDs !

Steve Willis wrote:Bob,

Noting the general recall falls to be last start, do you have any specific instructions (or noted problems) with individual recall boats and the next fleet awaiting start?

Steve

Hi Steve,

At our regatta at LBC I had an individual recall on my dart 18 and had plenty of time to bear away and go round the pin end to restart before the F18s who had their start 5 mins after ours.

The line was starboard biased though, I'm not sure how it would've worked out if it had been port biased. We didn't have anything in the SI about it but my personal feeling was that as I was stupid enough to be OCS then it was up to me to keep out of the F18s way.

Gabriel

Charles, you're so right. I sympathise with your OOD because it reminds me of the times when assistants, if any, fail to show.

I always take a referee's whistle with me. I'm able to grip the whistle between my teeth, thereby leaving my hands free for other tasks.