Dart 15 Forums

From hardly ever getting a protest in our class we seem to be suddenly suffering from a glut of them. As a third party observer it seemed to me that we are not very good at them. In at least 2 incidents at the weekend the sailor who was being protested came ashore without knowing that he was going to be protested. Thus where as a simple penalty turn would have resolved the issue on the water this was not apparently an option. On the few occasions when I had cause to protest someone I always made it very clear to the offender at the time of the incident that I expected him to do turns and if he did not I would protest him. If I had cause to be near to the offender again I would ask them if they had done their turns. This does not seem to be the way our fleet behaves. I do not know why the RRoS dropped the use of the red protest flag on boats under 6 metres but I would be in favour of changing our class rules to make it a requirement. We have plenty of places to stow such an item and it would make protests be unambiguously apparent at the time of the incident.
I'm interested to hear what others think............
Any views?
Cheers
Bob

Question - if the person who was being protested didn't know they were being protested how could the protest be valid? The rules say that the boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity. Most protests are due to collisions, near collisions or when a right of way boat had to alter course to avoid hitting a non right of way boat. In these cases boats are close. If the boat protesting didn't say protest at the first reasonable opportunity then the protest isn't valid.

That aside best to avoid protests and collisions even if you are the right of way boat and have to keep clear. It is much faster to stay out of the protest room! Be aware that rule 14 states that a boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. So even if you are the right of way boat and you cause damage (however small) to a non right of way boat that you could have reasonably avoided you are disqualified too.

If you need to test your rules knowledge here is a link to a very good quiz. I say quiz - it is a bit of an understatement!

http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Assets/R ... stions.pdf

And an article regarding staying out of the protest room!

http://www.sailingworld.com/article/Its ... otest-Room

I'm up on the rules right now having just organized a hearing for a collision at our club's annual regatta. It took two hearings and almost 6 hours to reach a decision! That is a lot of relaxation time missed for all involved!

George

It can also be a factor how hard you try to tell the offender you are going to protest them, and did they hear if you did not try very hard. The addition of the red flag makes it much clearer in my view................

Last year, I remember a funny incident at Pentewan. It was a light wind day, where the final reach had developed into a run to the finishing line.

Nearly everyone had finished except the final batch of twelve or so, including myself of course. The tail enders caught up so that all twelve boats were abreast of each other. Inevitably there was a clatter of boats somewhere in the middle. I think I know who it was: not me!

But as we were so close together and so near the line, it was impossible for the offending boat to do his turns. Ray Gall was on the outside, and he kept repeating Nick Dewhirst's famous line, "A gentleman knows when he is wrong"! It was repeated along the line to everyone's amusement.

Nobody lodged a protest. The chap who was trapped, could do nothing to avoid a collision. We all had a good laugh!

..and to illustrate my point I lost my first protest this weekend which I thought would be a dead cert!


Sunday was the final harbourmaster races of the series. The committee boat signaled a 6 lap course which can be either 2 triangles with a downwind finish or an olympic with a windward finish. The SI's do not say that T or O flags to signal this will be used so essentially you have to ask the race officer. So before the start we sailed right up to the boat and asked if the course was olympic and the answer was a clear yes. We were pleased that we asked because we were sure most people would assume triangles. We sailed a great race and were ahead by at least 200 yards around the top mark for the 2nd time. We sailed off on the sausage and were way down the course when the 2nd place boat started shouting at us to go round the gybe mark. We chose not to as we were so confident that we knew the course - we could have gone back at that time and still won. Of course we sailed down the the finish and got no gun. The RO said he must have mis-heard our question and was sorry.

When I got back to shore I put in a claim for redress. It didn't seem fair when the only way we could have known what the course was was to ask the RO who unfortunately didn't hear the question and mislead us. Surely through the action of the RO (combined with weak SIs) our race result was affected through no fault of our own. I think this is rule 62.1 a)

Alas not so and after about 40 mins of deliberation by the protest committee we were DSQ because we did not comply with rule 28.1.
A boat shall start, leave each mark on the required side in the correct order, and finish, so that a string representing her track after starting and until finishing would when drawn taut

(a) pass each mark on the required side,

(b) touch each rounding mark, and

(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previous mark.

Well we knew that! The point was that it was not our fault that that happened. The facts found were that we asked if it was an olympic course, that the RO said yes but did not hear us say olympic, we were within a boat length of the committee boat when we asked, that we had a big lead, that we did sail an olympic course, that we were DSQ.

A protest is at best 50:50, no matter how strong you think your case is. You have to avoid them at all costs.

Protests... been in 3 at national championships. All of which this month.
lost 3

1st one was in Irish Multihull nationals - a mixed handicap fleet, the organisers got our handicap incorrect on the Nacra Carbon 20 and although we informed them of the correct handicap 3 times they failed to change it so we sailed the whole event winning most races and taking the championshionship based on the handicaps they chose to race. 1 week later someone places a protest against us and the win was overturned putting us in 3rd position. (not too bothered about this one as should have been off the right handicap in the 1st place)

2nd as you all know was the Sprint nationals that i was robbed of in Netley.
here i feel cheated as at no point was i informed of protest on the water, the other party obviously thought otherwise but had no witnesses. You would think that the protest comittee would not make such a rash desicion based on a far from black and white situation however they made there choice and stuck with it.

3rd
F18 nationals windy day
Capsized at end of the 1st beat got boat up quickly as back of fleet were still passing, noticed another boat over and as the boat came back up it sailed off leaving both crew in the water. i collected them from a dangerous position as there was no rescue cover to hand, sailed them down wind for a few minutes to their capsized nacra then after dropping them off sailed back to the spreader mark which we had not yet rounded to continue racing. approximate time spent 6-8 minutes. fleet of 37 boats we finished 15th in the end after all that. requested redress for the time spent based on Rule 1.1 & Rule 62.3 we took 20 places after resuming the race and i am sure we would have taken a few more if not stopping for such a time.
however this was denied due to being in the same fleet postion before assiting the vessel as we were when returning to racing

so my view is all 3 protests i was involved in this month were unavoidable of course if i was informed of the 2nd one i'd of done a turn.


Could of gone into more detail on all of these but just thought id keep it brief.

Should avoid all protests as George says. Trust no-one and carry the sailing instructions with you on the water.

Early on in my Cat sailing career there was a very light wind event at Grafham (I think). We were all struggling up a busy beat & I saw Steve Sawford suddenly doing a turn. I was confused as he had clearly been the stand on boat. I asked him later what had happened & he said although boats only touched glancingly he took a penalty to ensure that there was no question about being exonerated. This very houourable (& sensible) action followed Nick's "a gentleman (or lady) knows when (s)he is in the wrong" to the tee - infact a bit past it as well. Steve obviously kept the points for that race.

If Kyle genuinely believed he didn't obstruct Simon & there were no witnesses then the protest would appear to be a 50:50 & perhaps the decision was a little tough based on the exact circumstances stated in this thread.

Now I don't want to fall out with anyone here, but:-

If the incident between Kyle & Simon at the nationals was when I was close to them early on in the last race, I had tacked onto port & went behind Simon. Kyle made a poor tack & I believe Simon did have to deviate from his course, having hailed Kyle. From my position it appeared that Kyle recognised he had obstructed Simon slightly. I deduced this by the way that Kyle was uncertainly looking around at Simon & me. I didn't think any more about it, even when I knew there was a protest going on as I had not been asked to be a witness. On the other hand Simon's course deviation was not huge & had Kyle not tacked Simon may have been disadvantaged more by Kyle's dirty wind than making the deviation.

This particular incident appears to be a tough one to call by the Protest Committee for a number of reasons, but as in most cases could have been avoided. Interestingly, both Kyle & Simon sail in other classes which may have slightly different racing ethos. However, I do believe that from time to time protests are a good thing, as they help to clarify rules not only in the minds of those involved, but also for other competitors. Hopefully, this thread has got lots of us brushing up on the rules, making us better sailors. The learning process never ends, does it?