Dart 15 Forums

It is curious that the 2 sail 2 up Sprint sails off the same handicap as a Unarig of 917 yet the Sport is off 883. Is the addition of one lightweight body to another on the 2 up version really so detrimental to the boat’s performance, particularly when it is breezy?
I’ve been sailing Sport single handed and Una rig for 18 months now and I agree with the many good long in the tooth Sprint sailors who say that Sport mode performs no better on beats and runs than Una and that it’s only on reaches that Sport is faster, ie, beam reaches, since I haven’t found any advantage on broad reaches either. So why does Sport have to give 3.34 mins in 100 to Unarig and to the 2 up 2 sail rig?
At Grafham where I sail, the time to complete a typical round of beat, run, broad reach and beam reach is about 15 mins when windy to 18 mins in light winds and I calculate that a Sport sailor would need to gain 33 and 40 sec respectively on the typical beam reach which lasts from about 2 mins to 4 mins, just to sail on equal terms with a Una sailor. And in my experience that is very difficult unless the reach is lengthy and wind breezy.
It is true that Sport can outperform Una because I have beaten the top sailors on handicap at Grafham on a few occasions when the course and wind were peculiarly favourable to SPORT, ie, the wind on the reaches was 10/14 mph they were longish and the courses were beat, two reaches one a beam reach, one or both long, and there were no or only very short runs. But such courses are not your average on which handicaps are supposed to be based.
So I ask. Should the Sport handicap be adjusted closer to that of the Unarig?

Jim,

I do believe that only the RYA PY committee can adjust the offical handicaps thus we need all clubs with Sprint 15's to send in their returns for all the different modes of the boat.

Clubs can apply a local adjustment if its unfair for some reason.

Martin S.

Jim asks a valid question. I think we all have an opinion on handicaps.

A couple of months ago, the racing at Thorpe Bay had been cancelled because it was too breezy for the monohulls , (force 7).

However, it didn't deter Kyle and a couple of other Sprints going for a blast. Kyle sailed sport mode, viz two sails and trapeze. When he came ashore, he said it was the fastest he had ever sailed in any boat! And he sails tornados as well!

The point of this observation is that trapezing a Sprint on a reach, if you can do it, can be very fast. Taking the opposite exteme, if the wind is zero, there is nothing to be gained in having a trapeze, nor even two sails: every boat remains stationary. A median has to be found.

On the subject of two-up/two sails, I notice in this year's results of the Round Sheppey race, that the PY was 935. It does seem handicap numbers vary from club to club. At Thorpe Bay, we use 917 in order to rate equally with the una-rigs.

PY numbers as issued by the RYA are only a guide. They are definitely not rigid, and clubs can change them if they wish, because it suits their particular piece of water;courses sailed etc.
Most clubs stick to the published PY numbers, because changing only causes more arguement, and people saying the committee are favouring one class over another.
We all know the system is not perfect- there are days we will never win, and days somehow the handicap works in our favour. But the numbers are worked out on results submitted, and more results being submitted, means more data, which will improve accuracy.

Generally I think the PY numbers are about right. At the end of the day Sport Mode, 2Up and Unarig are different boats and so will favour different conditions with respect to course, wind and sea state.

Most of us have more experience unarig and so are better at it, with Sport and 2up there is more to get right in order to make the boat perform.

This year I had a couple of good races at the Nationals but generally I struggle to do as well 2up at the Nationals as I do unarig back at Shanklin. But there aren't 60 boats on the start line at Shanklin !

I think most 2up's would agree you cannot compete against a unarig with 2 good sized adults on board which is why we all sail with our children. But isn't that great for the class as those children will be the next batch of juniors and so on.

Sport mode is generally faster than unarig, but it is also a harder boat to sail well.

On the whole I think it is about right.

Simon (& Lily - of course!)

The RYA PY scheme uses the results analysis provided to it from those clubs that bother to contribute (it is somewhat more complicated than sending the RYA files of a club's raw racing results for each race - some additional processing is required to be done by the club).

But on an empiric basis it is the most significant (ie large) body of generally available raw results from which handicaps can be determined. So it is the best National estimate. It would be better if more clubs sent in results.

Clubs are free to vary handicaps from the PY ones; few do.

Queen Mary does analyse its results.
Where the analysis of club results shows a statistically significant variation from PY figures an adjustment is made.
It is not unusual for fairly new classes to have unfavourable handicap adjustments at QM, eg while a conservative manufacturer's/class association's initial high PY estimate is rather more slowly reduced under the strictures of the RYA PY scheme.
The interesting point is that since before I joined QM in 2001 there has been a favourable adjustment for catamaran classes. Gordon Goldstone won a race at the last Standard Nationals and has a couple of overall top ten finishes in Nationals. I have individual race results at Nationals all the way down from 2nd to embarrassingly large numbers, with 4 overall top ten finishes - 2 Standard, 2 Sport. Gordon and I provide the majority of results on which this adjustment is made The QM adjustment is the same % for all cats, so the margin between Sport and Unarig is preserved at QM.

I attribute it to 2 main factors :
1 The average wind strength at QM is fairly low - I guess somewhere around the F2/3 boundary. Dinghies and keelboats generally get close to their maximum performance at lowish F-levels - maybe as low as the top end of F3 for some, F4/5 for others; the cats allowed at QM, especially the Sprint 15 classes, are way off maximum perfornace in light winds, getting close to maximum performance near F5/6.
To illustrate this, I sailed just 9 times in the 2010 Wednesday Evening series; it is the only Series at QM in which all classes race against each other (Sunday Racing is split up between Classes). It is the Series that the best QM sailors want to win/do well in; work permitting they're sailing in it.
My 9 results are :
3 wins (all in strong wind conditions when I would have won 2 on RYA PYs and been 2nd in the other);
a 2nd (in partially strong conditions - the wind dropped during the race)
a 2nd quartile 14th (F3ish, but never near F4)
a 3rd from last (Light Wind, F2 or less)
3 2nd from last (Light Wind, F2 or less)

2 The other main factor is the lack of significant wave action. Mostly, I reckon flatter water helps dinghies far more than it helps cats. When I sailed at CYC at Sheerness it was usual to experience an ugly short chop from the wind against tide (5kn or more). I found that mostly it paid to sail Sport Mode to drive the cat on the beat through the waves, quicker than I could sail Unarig; and offwind to drive the cat over the waves faster than it was possible to sail unarig (I don't think I ever got my cat totally out of the water, but I can remember seeing just 40cm length of skeg covered by a wave top several times one day).

I'd guess that the RYA PY handicaps are based on race results with a higher overall average wind range (eg including good sea breezes for seaside clubs (with higher proportions of cats than pond clubs?)), and with the effect of wave action for the proportion of contributing seaside clubs. Given this, and my experience at both an inland club (Queen Mary) and a seaside club (CYC), I expect an inland club sailor to find that it's difficult for a Sport sailor to beat a Unarig boat on standard PY handicap on inland waters.

It was interesting to see that the best results that the 2 up boats had at the nationals were actually in the lightest and shiftiest winds of the weekend. I suppose it's easier to spot shifts when you have a jib in addition to a fully battened main.

Since the sport nationals I've tried sailing both modes on my own, as well as 2 up with Hannah a fair bit, and I think there's pretty much no difference in how the boat performs in a handicap fleet. Still at the back with the lasers when there isn't any wind, then when it gets to the point where all the monos are overpowered then we stand a chance! The 18s are our only real benchmark, they are quicker in the lightest, but then when it gets above a force 2 we're all much of a muchness.

I would agree with Simon that child crews are the only option to have a chance 2-up against Una rigs. I'd go further & say that 4 stones is probably the optimum weight for the crew, to equal out the benefit from the jib. The problem with this is that the crew will probably be no more than 6 years old & not able to pull in the jib or indeed really understand what is going on! All our crews this year were 10yrs+ which is about right for concentration & being able to keep warm, but getting a bit big for a 15 crew while not big enough to helm.

I don't sail Sport very often, our club at 90 acres is too small to benefit from the additional straight line speed (the straight lines are just not long enough to overcome the time & effort getting out on the wire). Sport sailors have to be fairly good to get a good result on TTs. I've only sailed against Robin Leather & Steve Sawford when they were in Sport mode & I was in Una mode. They both did well in moderate to strong breeze, I'd say the PY is about right based on my experience.

Hi,

It's definately a 'horses for courses' type of thing. In a F1-2, unarig is favoured. F3 and its even. As soon as you can trapeze, then Sport is best.

Even when its F1-2, you can still do well provided you get a good start and use the extra speed to get to the windward mark first. From there, clear air and the hard work is usually done.

A lot of it comes down to how you sail the boat (obviously), but I've had some great fun events\races in light winds in mixed fleets.

Give Sporting a go, it easy, adds to the boat and gives you payback in both speed and smile factor. Even the old boys at Shanklin try to do it occasionally.

All the best
Robin (Gurnard)

I resemble that remark Robin.

The old boys (and some of the young boys if they're feeling energetic) at Carsington do it all the time In my view, it's what the boat was made for and is so much more involving than unarig. Sitting in a comfy trapeze is far better than hiking. I'm happy to give away some advantage for the thrill of sporting

Space is another issue here, Carsington sized waters are probably the break point, smaller ponds do not allow enough time out on the wire to make Sporting worth the effort. On 90 acres (my club's pond) you come in far more tired after trapezing than when hiking due to all the getting on & off the wire. Neat tacking gives you more advantage than 20 seconds on the wire.

You two have got me going now. I've got to pre-enter for Grafham next week but I can't decide: easy unarig or chancy sport rig?

Robert the sub-mariner.

I'm about 80-20 in favour of going sport at grafham. I enjoy trapezing a lot and I'd like to compare against the DX.