Dart 15 Forums

The class rules for National Championships say:

“5.3. A boat shall be allowed to race only if it satisfies the requirements for a valid Measurement
Certificate. Boats without cocktail cabinets in each hull shall carry correction weights.”

I am not sure why they should be just for the Nationals!

Our boat (2018) does not have correctors despite not having cocktail cabinets. After the Nationals we weighed it and found the hulls to be 29.82kg & 29.46kg.

My understanding was that the hulls need to add up to 66kg (http://www.sprint15.com/thesprint15.php) and therefore our boat should have 6.72kg of correctors. However, it also has a larger front beam which, at 6.98kg seems to be 1kg heavier generally than the little beams on the old boats. After a little deduction, I decided I needed to add 5.72kg of weight which I have done by fitting lead under the main hatch covers.

At the last 2 events, 2018 has been sailed by Erling (5th at Grafham) and Paul (1st at Stewartby). It has been sailed with the correctors fitted.

My question is, assuming the other new boats are similarly light, and for that matter considerably lighter than any previous Sprint 15s, are they also going to carry correctors (and not just at Nationals events) to ensure we maintain a 1 design class? Finally, although there is no specific rule, I think I should add that I feel boats with cocktail cabinets should also carry correctors if they are under 66kg.

Thoughts welcome and our apologies for sailing what appears to be an under weight boat at the 2016 Nationals,

Sean and Sophia
NB: There is a mention in the Rules Document:
"Allow front beam using the larger Dart 18 section front beam together with strengthened beam
sockets in the hulls and removal of the rigid inner mouldings of the cocktail cabinets replaced by
mesh bags below the hatch covers provided that the overall weight of the boat is unchanged."

You raise an important issue which has not passed the committee by. We are having a meeting shortly to decide whether we should enforce the rule mentioned or to see whether we should try and change the rules to make the new boats legal without adding weights.

Making all hulls or boats have a minimum weight as you suggest, which would be the fairest for class racing, does have two drawbacks; the rules would have to be changed and boats would have to be weighed accurately at events.

Enforcing the present rules is much easier if that is what we decide is required.

Hi one question I brought up at the nationals re correctors etc, if my boat is over the minimum weight can I take out the cocktail cabinets? I know that this would not effect the structural stability of the hulls, That is if there is a minimum weight ! If my boat was then under weight I could then add correctors to bring it up to weight if required!!! Rgs Will

Hello Will,

as a member of the Association you would be welcome to bring in a proposal for a change in the rules regarding minimum weight or removing cocktail cabinets but my understanding is that is currently prohibited by Specification 6b

This is a Production One Design Class. Measurement tolerances are intended to allow for random manufacturing variations only and shall not be deliberately used to alter the design. Any alterations to the hull construction, equipment, spars, sails or running rigging, as supplied by the manufacturers, except as specifically authorised by these rules, is prohibited.

I think that removing cocktail cabinets on overweight boats is a great idea. I am not sure where in the rules it precludes this??? As far as I can tell, it would just become a non cocktail boat that would need correctors if it became under weight.

If that's the case put cocktail cabinets in the new boats and make them heavy enough to bring the boats up to weight. But the problem I see is that if you do that if there is a minimum weight I should be able to make modifications such as removing the cabinets to get somewhere nearer to the weight of the new boats, logically if you weigh a boat all up ready to sail there should be some parity here.

I think both adding and removing cocktail cabinets to existing boats goes against the ethos of changes to rules as mentioned by Bob on a nearby thread.

It has to be easily and cheaply done if there are to be any changes.

We don't actually have a minimum weight for hulls or boats. We have a 15 boat rule that any protested boat must have its measurements and weights within the maxima and minima of 15 boats chosen at random.

It may well be that the new boats will have to have their weights brought up towards the norm for older boats.

Going on with this subject as far as I am aware there is not a minimum weight for this class! To get some parity here surely a minimum weight should be applied to the class but I think this should be an all up sailing weight of the boat including everything to sail the boat! Once this weight has been established then modifications and weights should be applied either way to make all the boats competive doing this will stableise the class, of course boats will have to be weighed but so what so they should be, we need a level playing field here. Not everyone can afford a new boat to be competitive that's not the aim here. I need to vent my frustration here I purchased my boat on the understanding that it was a strict one design but then finding out it was not frankly that really shocked me, I even insisted that the boat was totally within class when I purchased it from the previous owner. I would like to propose that cocktail cabinets be removed but I am not sure how to go about proposing this perhaps someone on the committee could propose this.

Hello Will,

I can understand your frustration but it would be much easier to weigh down 6 boats than remove what is a genuinely useful part of 2000 boats if the committee want to go down that route.

Having a minimum all up weight is an option if people are happy to have their boat weighed the day before the Nationals.

Out of interest, what does your boat weigh?

If you want to propose a new rule you need to notify the secretary:

7. ANNUAL GENERAL MEETINGS
...
v) Proposals, of which notice has been received 21 days prior to the A G M by the Secretary, who should in turn advise all members of these proposals 14 days before the A.G.M

The AGM is held at the Nationals.

Hi Liam I'm not sure what mine weighs I may be able to access a calibrated load cell perhaps I could do this leave that with me I'll see if I can sort this.

Hi Will, I agree that it is frustrating that a noticeable weight difference appears to have occurred. I strongly agree with Liam that if we are going to normalise weights the new boats should have correctors added. Due to manufacturing differences over time, damage repair & some take up of moisture older boats are bound to get a little heavier. Goodness knows I've taken out plenty of plastic padding from poorly repaired boat! Suggesting removal of parts of the boat as designed is not, in my view the way to go, but if it were any proposed change to rule 6 would have to be agreed at AGM or EGM. The cocktail cabinets are very useful, I find it quite annoying not having them when I sail 18s and would certainly prefer a boat with them, thus, in my mind you would be devaluing your boat by removing them, better to cut down on the pies :¬). I was disappointed when the bags were suggested as an alternative, but this was I believe for manufacturing reasons & not weight. When you bought your boat you were quite right to insist on compliance to rules. Old boats might have incorrect mainsheet set ups & these are not cheap to replace, that is all a fair part of the negotiating process. Weight is harder to deal with & in reality in any class will only be seriously considered as a negotiating point by very top flight helms. This discussion is also largely irrelevant to the majority of members who simply enjoy their boats to cruise or club race with. The most important point here is that the current National Champion has highlighted this issue in a very honourable way. Honour is what our class is and always has been about. The day that stops being the case is the sad day that I will stop racing Sprints. So don't be angry, our Committee will sort this out for us, with the help of this forum no doubt.

One other point, if we were not honourable sailors we might actually require measurement certificates under National Champs Rule 5.3 & as I have never seen one of these for the 10 or so boats I have owned & replacements are not issued, I expect that would result in only the Africa boats & 2015+ boats being 'legal', so just another reason why we are a great class & will get this sorted out to the fleet's satisfaction.

I haven't weighed Double Trouble but, if over weight, I would gladly document an easy way to remove the cabinets and how much weight is saved. It would not recover the full weight as I would not be taking the deck off...

ADDITIONAL EDIT (having actually read the previous posts I had not seen): I will obviously await confirmation that it is legal or that the class is happy for me to act as a test case. I do agree that I like the cabinets but the socks and front pocket do give enough room for the food and drinks me and Sophia require

I'd disagree with Liam. Why should Will have to buy a new boat if his is heavy? If his sail is old he can get a new one, they aren't cheap and definitely perform better than an old Spark sails.

I've had a boat that had one hull weighing 41kg and the other 40. I believe the new boats are around 29kg and 37kg hulls are not uncommon. I would support any rule to help equalise this by removing or adding weight. Maybe in the interim make just the new boats carry a small amount then get a proper weight decided on and voted for at the nationals. Too many people know of the weight difference now to just pretend it doesn't exist. We could even attract sailors from Dart 18s who have the same problem in that class but have no right to change the rules.