Dart 15 Forums

I think we have a potential issue with the tie-breaks in TTs with three races.

As it stands, I believe, the worst result is completely discarded and the tie-break is done on the total time of the two best races. This is fine if they happen to be the same two races but there is a good chance they are not. If one sailor discards an hour long race and one discards a twenty minute race the one counting the shorter race is almost certainly going to win the regatta if a tie-break is needed.

It would be fairer to add the times of all three races and fairer still to use the discarded race position as a tie-break before timings are used.

Better still, get rid of the discard altogether.

Hi Liam

We will take a look at this. Those people who requested in the survey to have three races for the Winter TTs were partly looking to make the event more worthwhile for a potentially long day trip but also to enable a discard. On that basis - we could just revert to normal scoring per the Racing Rules which is simpler to manage and well understood. I think the tie breaker timing calc only needs to be applied on events where we can still only run two races.

Bob has sent us the Winter TT guidelines - so Chris and I can take a look and propose an update.

Jenny

Normal scoring seems fine to me. It will make it easier for clubs to work out the results.

And normal scoring will also apply when a planned 3 race event gets reduced to a 2 race event because of circumstances on the day?
And the same for an event that is planned for just 2 races?
Are there issues involved in applying the change mid-series when the series has or may have been announced as having the aggregate time basis for deciding ties at each event?
May as well get all the silly detail properly thrashed out!

Hi George

For this Winter series, all events so far (and the next one) have been set up at three races with a discard. Normal scoring rules have been applied for all events (as set out in their SIs) so we are not changing anything part way through the series.

Normal scoring also applies to the two race format - the only difference being that if there is a tie, the practice has been to settle it based on combined race times.

So we just need to decide whether we keep that arrangement for events where only two races are run (whether planned or due to conditions on the day) - or whether we revert to the normal scoring system and settle the tie by placings in the last race. This has a big advantage for the race management team as they then don;t have to take race times and every club's race results software is set up for this. Equally, this arrangement was implemented for a reason and has been around for some time, so we may opt to continue it for two race events and just make sure clubs reflect it the event SIs.

In other words I was completely wrong. You could have just said.

Hi Jenny,
Bob Carter introduced the overall time basis for settling ties - I think because he thought it unfair that the 2nd race of just 2 races should count more in the reckoning. Because some boats might sail standard mode and some Sport (then Sprint) mode so that timing each boat was, and still is, something that host clubs have to be warned may be necessary, Bob proposed the "aggregate handicap time basis" for settling ties. Then participants in Winter Travellers approved of this method being adopted.

But I think that Bob's initiative predated the adoption by ISAF (and IOC) of the medal race system which applies double weighting to the last race for those who have done well enough to enter the medal race. I think that if someone proposed the introduction of the "aggregate handicap time" method now it would be rejected. I'd certainly vote against it.

So I see every reason for the normal basis being used for all the Winter Traveller One Day Events, regardless of the number of races actually sailed. I was worried about whether the "Notice of Series" might restrict change .

But the Travellers are open to both Standard and Sport Mode boats, so you still have to make sure that host clubs expect to time every boat, with the possibility of not having to do so if it happens that all participants choose to sail the same Mode.

George,
The other reason for the aggregate time system for resolving tie breaks when there are 2 races is that the opportunity for ties is vastly increased (1,2: 2,1 & 1,3; 3,1, etc) My view is that if there is just 2 races this is the most equitable way to decide on ties. If 3 races are planned and sailed then the standard system is OK. I do not see how the medal race double points system helps or applies in such a short series. It is up to Jenny & Chris now to do it how they want.
Regards
Bob

The third race doesn't count double - but it does count more. If all scores are identical the better score in the last race breaks the tie.

Liam wrote:The third race doesn't count double - but it does count more. If all scores are identical the better score in the last race breaks the tie.

Yes but that is the system I wanted to avoid. It not obviously fair as the first race might have been longer and better fought and the last one might have been short and scrappy. Ties are much more likely if there are just 2 races - as the series gets longer the normal scoring becomes less of an issue as ties become less likely.
Cheers
Bob

Liam wrote:In other words I was completely wrong. You could have just said.

Liam - firstly, you are never wrong. And secondly - having not done the Winter TTs before, I had not appreciated that this arrangement existed so I am glad you raised it!

Folks,

Personally 3 races is too small a number for a discard, you normally kick in a discard with 4 races sailed in a series at club level. I think TT's should be scored normally in accordance with RYA\ISAF scoring which is well understood. The overall TT series is scored in accordance with those rules with Ties Broken by the rules in Appendix A, discards in the overall series only kick in after someone has sailed 4 events since your best 3 events count.

Martin S.

P.S after 2yrs out of sailing I think this year I may finally get out there again.