Dart 15 Forums

Hi All

At the Draycote Winter TT, 1st start, Jason & I had a fairly gentle coming together. We had a difference of opinion on right of way & following discussion on dry land agreed to do some reading up.

My perception is:-

Prior to the start Jason was to windward of me.
I hailed 'Windward' & luffed up.
Jason hailed 'In front' & did not alter course. On land Jason said his tillers were hard over, what do Lasers do if 50 are sat on the line & also referenced Rule 14 Avoiding Contact.
Our boats touched.

My view is that rule 11 applies ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED. When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

Prior to the start signal no proper course rule applies, but in any case my sail was drawing & therefore I was not sailing above a post start proper course.

Jason, have I described the situation correctly?

Does the acquired wisdom of the class think that I had the rights?

You also have to have the time and opportunity to get out of the way. The pivot point of a boat is somewhere round about the middle of the boat so you can't luff unless your bow is past midships on the boat to windward. Otherwise if you get a four inch overlap and shout "up", the other boat will turn up and the stern will hit you.

That's an interesting point Liam. I would have said Jason was only 2 to 3 feet in front of me. On our boats I would think the pivot point is further aft than on a centreboard boat. If you have only 4" overlap though that is still overlap, there aren't different rules for the amount of overlap, it is or it isn't. But, as you say the leeward boat would have to give time & opportunity. In that context, Jason's point about Lasers sitting on the line means none of them are moving much & so opportunity to get out of the way, or indeed, luff is limited. But if boats are moving towards the line, as cats usually do since we want to get a running start, then there is generally opportunity to move, it is just not very palatable since it will probably result in the windward boat being pushed over the line, but that's racing.

An overlap is an overlap & for sure reasonable opportunity to move needs to be given, but at the start it's expected to be a manoeuvring zone so you need to plan ahead. A Dart 15 is not a Laser and cannot behave or handle in the same manner, so irrelevant.

If you put yourself to windward of competitive sailors during the starting sequence then for me that is your prerogative but equally your risk if you get luffed/hit by a leeward boat etc so be prepared or plan ahead to have an exit strategy.

It can get more complicated when there are lots of boats to windward, but the rules are clear enough I'd say. The 'hook' is a common move during starting so also needs looking out for.

I was driven into the committee boat @ Instow during a start at the nats, but my own fault for being there! I was advised that being forced into a collision with the committee boat was not 'allowed', but I took it on the chin and would have done the same if I was the leeward boat.

I love you both dearly so absolutely not picking sides fellas (plus I wasn't there), but it sounds to me a fairly straightforward leeward/windward scenario.

If Jason's rudders were hard over I don't see what more he could do. You can only luff to head to wind, you can't force a tack.

Liam wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:24 am If Jason's rudders were hard over I don't see what more he could do. You can only luff to head to wind, you can't force a tack.

I agree with the above. We need to be moving to be able to steer.

I have in the past had boats come from behind (overtaking) & turn upwind into me with a shout of windward, but if I'm not moving or going very slowly not much I can do.

Every situation can be different.

Mark Aldridge wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 2:57 pm
I have in the past had boats come from behind (overtaking) & turn upwind into me with a shout of windward, but if I'm not moving or going very slowly not much I can do.

You could say "protest" back to them.

Liam wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:26 pm

Mark Aldridge wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 2:57 pm
I have in the past had boats come from behind (overtaking) & turn upwind into me with a shout of windward, but if I'm not moving or going very slowly not much I can do.

You could say "protest" back to them.

If I could be bothered with the admin Liam. A firm retort and a cunning manoeuvre has to date done the job..

..don't get mad, get even!

Thanks for your lively debate gents.

Looking back, I can't quite see how Jason had his rudders hard over as he appeared to be moving faster than I was & in a straight line...

... Anyway, he knows not to windward of me on the start line again, if he's read this .