104 KG - FACT OR FICTION?

[stuartsnell]

First appeared on the manufacturers original sales brochure (questionable as there were some errors on brochure). It appeared the following 2 years in ungraded brochures.
WINDSPORT says this is the correct weight.
Formula White says that the weight that they are building the hulls to now is the same as they did when they built them for Laser centre in the 90s (within manufacturing tolerances).
SCHRS quote it.
Yachts & Yachting quote it in their "out of Africa report"
Sprint 15 association have that report on this website - see last page . Bob Carter sailing at the top. Sailing weight at the bottom 104 kg.

Bob Carter says - THERE IS NO MINIMUM ALL-UP WEIGHT.
How then can any boat be too light??
If there is a weight it is being kept secret - even the rest of the committee do not know.

COMING SOON - Weightgate - the questions your committee will not answer.

[Bob Carter]

Sorry Stuart,
I'm afraid it is fiction. We have collected a ton of data (64 hulls and 34 assembled boats) and none of it suggest that a104Kg Spark or Dart 15 with cocktail cabinets ever existed. It is true that it has frequently been copied in various documents but it does no change the fact that we have been unable to find any evidence of it's existence.
I remain baffled by the fact that you think sailing a boat that is about 7Kg lighter than all the older boats on the circuit is fair competition.
Regards
Bob

[Liam]

"Fact or fiction" is the perfect question.

104kg is only right if you leave out the sails and the rudders.

Time to move on from this and get back on the water.

[Liam]

Formula White says that the weight that they are building the hulls to now is the same as they did when they built them for Laser centre in the 90s (within manufacturing tolerances).

Minus the cocktail cabinets.

[stuartsnell]

No Liam Formula White have said the completed hull weight is the same on the new boats as it was in the 90s boats .You should have received detailed info on this from me on4th Feb along with the rest of the committee.

[Liam]

Are you sure that's what they said? You implied that they had used similar production methods and there was no mention of compensating for the lack of cocktail cabinets.

We have a huge amount of data that proves it to be untrue.

Not only do we have weights of 28 older existing boats we also have factory quality control statements showing 17 hulls weighed within 1kg of 33kg when they came out of the factory. The new hulls are under 30kg.

We need to move on from this amicably. We want to all race fairly and you are a good enough sailor to beat us all fairly and squarely without having to use equipment that gives you an advantage over those who cannot afford a new boat.

[Kevin Parvin]

All this talk of hull weight has made me run into the garage and put 1615 on the scales.

Port hull 31.6kg
Starboard hull 31.1kg (major hull repair by Steve Sawford)

I think my results are as accurate as I could achieve and for a 1991 build boat isn't to bad. I've put on more wood over the years than the cat!

Kevin
1615

[simon]

If Kevins weigh Kg31.1 after a major repair, that suggest it may well of been below Kg30 before the repair

[Kevin Parvin]

It's interesting to follow the evolution of the Sprint 15 to another sailing dinghy that's been around a while the Supernova. First built by Giles in GRP then more recently by Hartleys again in GRP MkII, then switching to epoxy resin and now known as the Mk IIe. Hull weight has come down from 62.5kg to 50kg (that's quite a drop).
The new boats are very light and responsive but interestingly at last years Llandudno Nationals a very old Supernova placed third after 7 races (120 boats entered).The class don't use weight correction but do have separate prizes within the fleet for the old boats.
The bulk of the fleet at Llandudno were the epoxy boats with a smaller percentage of GRP MkI and II. The Sprint 15 is very different with only a small number of the total fleet having 'weight issues'. I'm not on the committee and only know the current situation from reading posting on the forum. Perhaps a full explanation can be given to all members of the class association especially the departure of Gordon Goldstone as class chairman. I love sailing my Sprint 15, I've had the same boat for 17 years, would like a new one but the 10k required has to go on the house, car, kids university education etc etc etc.

Kevin
1615

[Bob Carter]

All this talk of hull weight has made me run into the garage and put 1615 on the scales.

Port hull 31.6kg
Starboard hull 31.1kg (major hull repair by Steve Sawford)


Kevin
1615

My word Kevin, 2 hulls at 62.7Kg that is the lightest we have seen.
A pair of Rob White built Dart 15 hulls (sail numbers 1935 - 1991) typically weigh 68-69Kg.
Regards
Bob

[Kevin Parvin]

Hi Bob
I think my method was reasonably sound. I placed my scales (Salter digital/domestic type), on a block on the garage floor, then lifted each hull onto the scales at the balance point. Once the hull stopped wiggling about the weight reading settled down nicely. Even Mrs Parvin was surprised how similar each hull weighed.
I'm a bit OCD when it comes to removing water from the hull after sailing, always remove the hatch covers for storage, and use a good quality breathable full cover. The boat over-winters at home in the garage. This is the first year for a while it's been broken down as the daughter has left her car at home while she's at her studies (fancy leaving a car in the garage).
This is very unscientific but over the years I've lifted Sprint 15s up beaches usually during fun sails, one person on each corner stomping up the shingle. If you keep at the same lifting point for each boat moved you know what a heavy boat feels like compared to a light one.
I don't know if differences are due to production methods or water uptake over the years.

Kevin

[Andrew Hannah]

Until quite recently, I was of the opinion that weight was all-important. Indeed, there's a whole industry to make equipment lighter. Eg carbon fibre masts and tiller extensions. Even I resolved to have less beer in the cocktail cabinets. But when it came to underweight hulls, I was dismissive, believing it didn't matter.

My shrink will sort me out.............

[simon]

This is Simon's wife here using his forum access. (with his permission)
All comments are my own.
I CANNOT believe how grown men can be acting so childishly over such an unimportant matter. As Andrew says - "it doesn't matter" In the grand scheme of things there are far bigger things to worry about!!
I am so very angry with you all for turning what should have been an enjoyable time for Simon, a time of anticipation and excitement at:
1. getting back into the fleet where he was happiest and thoroughly enjoyed sailing. and
2. doing so in a new boat that we can afford now we do not have s0 many drains on our resources
He was so looking forward to being able to race again at places like Marconi, Thorpe Bay etc etc, but of course he does not want to do this with having to carry extra weight on the boat bearing in mind that he is not the smallest or lightest of chaps. He is even thinking about not sailing the circuit - he is so disillusioned by it all.
You all need to drop this, get back on the water and enjoy your sailing as you were doing previously before the thought of underweight boats had even reared its head and from what I can see by reading the posts on this forum it seems as though you have all been racing against underweight boats for years with no problem. This implies acceptance of such, as it has never been brought into question before. Also whilst on the subject of implication, the data that has been published has never had a revision published (as far as I can tell from these posts) and therefore, surely, without a retraction/revision, this data has been accepted implicitly for many years!!!!! If it aint broke why fix it?
Would Brian at Windsport sell 'illegal' boats which is what you are saying the underweight boats are?
This post might have raised some eyebrows (and some questions) but I hope it makes you think again about how these will actually affect the class and its members. Drop it now before any more damage is done and GO SAILING

[Liam]

Weight is a long way down on a list of things that can make a boat go fast or slow. But it is on the list. The 6kg will make little impact on anybody but it will make the new boats lose some of their advantage.

Paul has been carrying weights on 2018 and has had a first and a second this Winter. There is nothing to fear from a couple of small handfuls of lead.

As you say, let's go sailing.

[Jan]

I have followed the debate with interest over the last few months and I have spoken with a number of the travellers and fleet at Draycote regarding the weight of the boat.

I will keep away from the rules, regulations and brochure specifications, as these have been covered more than once in the various other threads.

My Background to ownership was always wanting to go fast. I had learnt in a Mirror and GP 14 and also learnt to windsurf, so I knew that I didn’t want to go back to a wooden boat or something that was slow. Family and a caravan meant there was only really one choice.

At this point I was at the end of my knees and rugby playing days. I was not that experienced and not racing on the Dart/ Sprint circuit.

But being a competitive sort, I was soon racing at Draycote and joining some of the winter series events and wondering how some of the fleet were nearly lapping me! I remember Charles Watson flying at a very windy Draycote event.
Over the years, practicing starts, coach in’s with Nick Dewhirst / Paul Smith and latterly Howard Hawkes , general help, practicing, I have of course got better. I could now be on the same leg as most of the other boats, and sometimes if it was F5 plus I could be nearer the front.

I attended the Sport Nationals at Instow in 2008 and Nationals at Pwllheli in 2011 [ I was sea sick between races at Pwllheli but that is another story ] and really enjoyed it as I could race against a variety of sailors having our own personal little battles on equal footing all amongst the fleet.

I changed boats from 1348 to 1913 as the sail and equipment was better, and in the last two years had a new sail for 1913 which made a lot of difference of course. At Rutland this year I got a 9th, which on the face of it was great!! ,.. Unless you knew there were only 9 boats racing.

Partly this was caused by about 4 gallons of water in the starboard hull that took 15 minutes to sponge out after the 3 races. Weight, it seems, makes a difference.

I had a prior arrangement with Steve Sawford to take the boat after that event [ thanks again Steve ] and it was noticeable at Draycote this year when I got a 3rd in the first race behind Liam and Paul and was reasonable competitive in the other races in light winds.

Experience of Sportsmanship as a rugby player and as a sailor has always been important to me. It has been written many times in the past that this is important to this association and fleet. I want to sail competitively against boats that are similar in performance, so I can gauge my personal sailing performance in the fleet.

I am what could possibly be termed as a heavyweight at 101 kg. I am ok with racing against lightweight and better sailors.
However giving that the corrector weight is 6kg and the new boats will still be well made and stiffer , I think this will have a minor effect , and the good helms will still do well.

However, if there is someone who is a similar weight and capability to me, I would want to beat them fair and square in boats of similar weight [ or maybe lose] and then have a pint after to discuss where we both went wrong after in the Bar.

I will be continuing to sail in this fleet because I believe that this is still the best boat for me. I may even consider a new boat with corrector weights once I have money, in the knowledge that my fellow competitors are doing the same and have added weights, and that whoever buys my old boat will also be buying relatively competitive boat.

Jan
1913